"Breast is Best?"— PhD Lactation Expert Exposes The Truth

[0:00] Jason: Kathy, quick question. When did breast is best stop being advice and start being a way to make exhausted moms feel like they’re failing a test?

Kathy: Oh, we’re going straight after it today, aren’t we?

Jason: That’s right. And I’m serious.

[0:13] Kathy: Is it actually evidence based, or did we take a real benefit, crank it up to 11, and then hand new parents a guilt complex with a hospital bracelet?

Jason: Well, both can be true, and that’s the conversation nobody wants us to have out loud. So we’re gonna have it. Today, we have a lactation consultant here to either validate what we think

[0:31] Kathy: we know or tell us we’re completely wrong. Which, let’s be honest, that happens a lot on this show. Bottle fed, breastfed combo, what the science actually supports versus what’s just pressure in the lab coat. This is the pitch. What happens when a chiropractor and a physical therapist get together to make a health and wellness podcast? But chiropractors and physical therapists don’t like each other. Oh, think again. I’m doctor Kathy Lynch, physical therapist who likes to help people move and get stronger.

Jason: I’m doctor Jason Young, an evidence based chiropractor who uses humor just as much as adjustments to help people get better. Welcome to the pitch podcast. Remember, there’s no I in

[1:10] Jason: pitch. Okay. Welcome back to the Pitch podcast. I’m doctor Jason Young.

Kathy: I’m doctor Kathy Lynch.

Jason: And this is our special guest, doctor Jessica Bliss.

Jessica: Yes. Yes. Hey. And, this is me checking my notes. Wait. Did I say your name right? Yes. I did. Got it.

Jason: Yeah. But It’s actually Jessica.

Kathy: Oh, Jessica. Oh.

Jason: Jessica. Jessica is here with us today.

Jessica: We are so happy to be here today.

Jason: Calling you by your hip hop hip hop name

Kathy: Yeah. Which is J Bliss.

Jessica: Yeah. A lot of people do.

Jason: Yeah. And there’s some people are,

[1:46] Jason: are just listening. They’re not watching. She is actually not African American.

[1:55] Kathy: Hop. Okay. Sweet. Yeah. Later on the episode, everyone. Stick around.

[2:00] Jason: Yeah. Okay. So this is kind of an aside, and I promise we’re gonna get into all the lactation stuff. I promise.

Kathy: But It’s okay. You know, sometimes people are like, hey. Do you wanna come to this, like, hip hop exercise class? And my answer is always no. Because if I went to that class, I would feel like I should be teaching it. I live in a town full of white people. I’m not gonna have a white person up there telling me Yeah. This is how you do hip hop exercise.

Jason: Yeah. Have you ever taught one? Can you teach one?

Kathy: I

[2:24] Kathy: of course, I can. I’m not a good white. I I don’t know what I would do, but, yeah, I would just get up there and feel it, do whatever comes natural.

Jason: Yeah. It’s next. The pitch hip hop dance class.

Kathy: That’s right. It’s a whole side hustle.

Jason: Oh, wait. Okay. So quick announcement.

Kathy: Yeah. We made this at the end of last episode, but we know that nobody watches that long. Right. Oh. So let’s yeah. Yeah. Just one person.

Jason: You’re gonna tell Just one person, and it is Clem.

Kathy: Clemy and then coach Dan.

Jason: Coach Dan. Yes. Okay. So, now everybody’s gonna be like, what happens at the end of these episodes? In a while. And what they’re gonna do is they’re not gonna watch a whole episode. They’re just gonna skip to the end. Yeah. So alright. It’s okay. We live in the future. But the pitch podcast has a new website, and the new website

[3:07] Jason: is better than the old website because the new website, my favorite feature of it is we have a Wiki, which is so much fun. You know, we use Wikipedia as the main source of information

Kathy: For the podcast.

Jason: For this for this show. That. So I thought, let’s have our own Wiki. Right? So you can get, like if you’re if you’re listening to this and, like, oh, jeez. What are they talking about with that? Who is coach Dan? Right? I think I don’t know if coach Dan has a has a Wiki entry.

Kathy: He needs an entry. Clem has one

Jason: Okay.

Kathy: As well as Wonder Woman Island.

Jason: Okay. And just, like, all these kinds of things. And NARD, like the T shirt, which you can get one of these on the website.

Kathy: I can. Yes. Yes. You can. Linked. You can.

Jason: Okay. Great. Great. What’s on my shirt? Tonight. Shoot.

[3:49] Jason: But, yeah, pitchpodcast.com. Like, go to the Wiki. Check out our guest. We have sponsors, affiliate links, all those kinds of things. Plus, there’s a place where you can vote on what do we do next. Right? Like, there’s, like, there’s a poll up. Should Jason put his left index finger on his nose? That’s that’s not one of the polls. But now you’re gonna go look. You’re gonna look at the website. Yes. Right? So, yeah, pitchpodcast.com. That’s us. Alright. And, we’re back.

Kathy: Quality material. Yes. Yeah. Really. It’s really good. Really good content. And,

[4:24] Jason: usually, we don’t wait this long before introducing our esteemed guests. On a tangent there. Yeah. But super excited.

Jessica: I’m comfortable just waiting and listening. This is great.

Jason: Well, can we say some cool stuff about you?

Jessica: Yes. Oh, good. Yeah. You guys are prepared.

Jason: Jessica Bliss. I don’t know why she lives in Corvallis. Oh, you guys. Yeah. She is vastly overqualified

Jessica: Mhmm. To live in Corvallis.

Jason: Yes. Yes. To be amongst us. Just mere mortals.

Kathy: Yes. Mere mortals.

Jason: Yeah. And, But that’s not true.

Kathy: Yeah. It is.

Jason: She is she’s a lactation consultant, which I’m gonna I’m gonna say there’s kind of a stigma sometimes where people are like, lactation consultant. Really? Okay. That’s what you need to help people.

Kathy: That’s how I feel when I hear it. Yeah. Okay. I’m serious. That’s It is exactly how I feel. You’re like, weird lady. Like, I think about I hear I hear, like, when someone says that’s what they are or when you hear the term, I think

Jessica: Oh, really? Bullish,

[5:24] Jessica: pushy, dogmatic. Uh-huh.

Kathy: Yeah. Really. And I’m like, ugh. Have you seen severance?

Jessica: No. But

Jason: Oh, gosh. Is it about limbs?

Jessica: No.

[5:36] Kathy: This is gonna be one of the best episodes ever.

Jason: No. It’s not. Okay. It’s,

[5:41] Jason: to confess it. It’s an Emmy no. No. It’s an Emmy award winning winning show, and it’s on Apple TV who man, I feel like they should be sponsoring now for me. Hyping their show like this. Mhmm. But, no, it’s really popular show. It’s great. I don’t wanna, like

[5:57] Jason: basically, the idea is that every, like, you go and work at this place, and there’s a chip in your brain that makes it so that once you go down to work, like, you forget everything about the outside world. And you’re actually going down. Are you going underground? In an elevator. Yeah. Kathy. Right?

Kathy: Yeah. We’re gonna hear about this in a second.

Jason: Okay. But you go down this elevator, you forget everything about the outside world and the outside you, so you’re just there focused on work. Okay. And then whenever you get back in the elevator and you go up, you forget everything about work.

Kathy: Oh my god.

Jason: And so that’s the severance. But there’s two different people. People.

Kathy: Exactly.

Jason: And that and that’s kind of the dichotomy there is,

[6:35] Jason: like, things happen in the show, and the the people like, you have an in and outie, and they realize that the things that they do that that they that they affect the other person and the question belly button? No. There’s some people who came and they’re like, I wanna know about lactation. And they’re like, we’re fifteen, twenty minutes in. Actually

[7:00] Guest: But inverted and

[7:03] Jason: inverted nipples And you’re right. And someone goes for a belly button. Yes. So this I told you guys could get She’s a PhD. She’s not just a lactation consultant.

Kathy: Oh. See? Verified. She knows stuff.

Jason: Yes. And you know what she has in common with, with, what’s his name? Andy from the office.

Kathy: Oh,

[7:20] Jason: what’s that? I do I’m interested in birds. Yeah. It’s not the birds. Is he interested in birds? I don’t know. I don’t know. Oh. No. Okay. But he did go to Raul. Do you know where Andy went? Oh. Cornell. He went to Cornell. That’s right. Yay. So both of you went to Cornell. I’m 99% sure that character did not get any interest. No. He did not. It’s his undergraduate. I think he, you know, did music. He did. He did. And, you’ve also done research at Princeton?

[7:47] Guest: That’s correct. Holy crap. Yeah. Yes. And it is correct.

[7:52] Guest: Yeah. Corrales, we don’t deserve her. No. We didn’t. It’s really good here. Actually, I moved back here with the the sole purpose of one day being on this podcast. Yeah. Dreams do come true. Yeah. Here we are. And here’s the tremendous long game that she has.

[8:06] Jason: She didn’t even know the podcast. We didn’t even have a podcast. When she moved back. But It’s like kind of a feeling that here we are. Smartest person in the room. Yeah. Don’t you want this to be your lactation consultant?

[8:20] Jason: Tell us about your business. Going strong. Could you tell us about your business? Yeah. I would love to. I,

[8:27] Guest: own Bright Star Lactation based on Corvallis,

[8:30] Jason: which does deserve the best. Yes. It does. We have the best. Some really good people.

[8:36] Guest: So I offer home visits for families who have new babies or, like, older babies, but I think sometimes saying older babies sounds insulting because

[8:47] Jason: I get called older baby all the time.

[8:51] Guest: So they say I have a baby. And my older baby, Jason. Yeah.

[8:57] Guest: Totally. There it’s just confusing. Yeah. Yeah. It’s confusing. But, What’s an older baby to you? So to me, an older baby is a baby that’s probably older than eight weeks old. Oh, okay. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Very much. Still very much a baby. Yeah. Still Yeah. Super baby. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, especially Little bit of gray hair. A six month old or a eight month old, definitely an older baby. Yeah. Yeah. Not a toddler. Not not toddler. Okay. Yeah. Those are older babies. K. K. So why the name Brightstar? Yeah.

[9:28] Guest: Oh, gosh. Okay. Well, this I used to have a I used to have a different business, and it had a funny, kinda cool name that was sort of edgy. Mhmm. This is when I was working as a doula and started some lactation work. And I I called it the mothership. Oh. Yeah. And I thought that well, actually, someone else thought of it. Mhmm. And I overheard it. Yeah. I was on a run and a couple college student I was passing some college students who were not running. They were just walking. Mhmm. I’m not that fast, but,

[9:59] Guest: they were talking about the mother lode or something. Anyway, so I was calling this business the mothership. And this is great marketing for my new business. Yeah. This was a different name. Different name entirely. I’m like, marketing for a business that doesn’t exist anymore. Like you moved here for a podcast that didn’t exist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s all coming together. Anyway, it’s called Bright Star because at some point, after working with several trans parents, I felt like I don’t wanna be called the mothership anymore. Mhmm. And I’d and I don’t think that it was, it was my yeah. It was my choice entirely. No one was ever like,

[10:35] Guest: I’m not calling myself mother. You you what’s the deal? Can you still work with me? It was more just not giving the vibe I wanted to. Mhmm. Okay. So so Brightstar. Yes. Yeah. Also, I quilt. And there’s Therefore therefore Brightstar. It’s there’s, like, I was thinking of what would be, okay. So picture this. You’re really, really tired, and you’re super stressed out because you just had a baby, and you’re responsible for taking care of it. And what is the kind of image that you’d want to be

[11:07] Guest: seeing? Mhmm. And I was thinking, like, warm, bright, you know, welcoming. So that’s what I that’s what I needed. That’s a bright star. Mhmm. I love it. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. Thanks. It was either that or, like, mother-in-law.

[11:20] Jason: Yeah. Mother-in-law, come take this baby. Oh my god. Yeah.

[11:24] Guest: Right. Yeah. Yeah. That’s what that was his second runner-up. Yeah. Pretty close. It’s really close. Oh my gosh. But so, yeah, I just I I, show up usually so can we swear on this podcast?

[11:38] Jason: Is that It’s kind of PG ish. Okay. Got it. But you could just say the first letter of the swear. Yes. Okay. So

[11:45] Guest: I recently had this someone said this about my type of business. They called it the o type of business. O, the o s. The o s type. Yeah. O. So kind of like a poopy. Yeah. Yeah. Like, if there’s a so, like, plumbing Uh-huh. You know, you don’t need a plumber No. Until you do. Need a plumber. Yes. And then you really need them, and you kinda need them now. Right away. And so that’s my business.

Jason: Well, I had a conversation with, a pregnant patient

[12:12] Kathy: last night. Oh. Yeah. Who who I referred to you. Thank you very much. And, she’s got, like, nine weeks left. Okay. And I’m like, listen. I know that I said lactation, and you’re thinking I’m not breastfeeding anybody right now. But but you want the information right now. Yeah. Not later not later when you’re also wrestling with postpartum depression. Yes. And And, like screaming baby. Yeah. And sleep deprivation. Yeah. A little poo bomb and everything like that. Bomb. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Thanks. That’s great for putting the the word out. I I do have one important question to ask, and that is, did you become a PhD because you couldn’t get into chiropractic school?

[12:55] Jason: Woah. Woah. The level of laughter.

[12:59] Kathy: I’m a wee bit offended. I know. I just I knew the way you set it up. It was gonna be a good question. I was just ready. I was I’ve asked medical doctors this, and they at least kept a straight fix. I, had a sexual intercourse response. Wow. Yes. Alright. Kathy, you can do the rest of this. Yeah. Alright. Jason, yeah. No. I wanna say that I didn’t get into chiropractic.

[13:23] Jason: Oh, really?

[13:24] Kathy: Oh, oh, gosh.

[13:26] Jason: Shoot. That just means you didn’t apply. Yeah. I didn’t apply.

[13:30] Kathy: So why did you get your PhD?

[13:33] Jessica: Tell us. And what’s it in? Yes. Okay. It’s not lactating. No. This is so great. Okay. It’s my PhD is in international nutrition with an emphasis on epidemiology k. And, rural agriculture, of course. Mhmm. Yeah. Of course. Mhmm. What does that mean? Yeah. I know. I feel like I really have to back up. So I’ll try to just

[13:54] Kathy: get us there as quickly as possible. Know because we’ve heard you talk about this. You have such a wonderful story. Yes. Okay. So you’re Lay it on. Like, it’s time for this story. Do it.

[14:03] Jason: Yes. Everybody everybody pull over if you’re drunk. Yes. Yes. Because they’re gonna cry. Yeah. Well, and you should be watching YouTube. No. No. No. Yes. Unless you wanna come to Bodyfield Chiropractic and Wellness.

[14:16] Jessica: After the accident. Alright. Yes. Yes. Buckle up. Here come the great story. Okay. I think the the the best place to start this story is to rewind to, Niger, which is yeah. Like, if you hear the if you’re listening, which I hope you are listening,

[14:36] Jessica: Niger is a country in West Africa. It’s landlocked. It’s Sahara Desert. Mhmm. And I lived there in the Peace Corps when I was in the Peace Corps for two years. And I should point out, she says it correctly. Some of you are like, Nigeria? Yes. No. It’s Niger. Yeah. Nigeria. Not Nigeria. Uh-huh. Nigeria, it shares a border with Nigeria. Yes. Nigeria is also awesome. Yeah. And they have some common languages between Niger and Nigeria. But, the reason it’s pronounced differently is because Niger got colonized by a bunch of whiteies from France Mhmm. And Nigeria

[15:07] Jason: was, the British. Can we just point out, though, that I’ve never been to Africa? So, technically, you’re more African American than I am. Been so many more times than you. Oh my gosh. Yeah. In my face. Woah. And Well, tell me about my Nigerian people.

[15:26] Jessica: I this is so great. Get out of map if you’re home, listeners at home. So, okay. So I was there 2007, 2008, and I,

[15:37] Jessica: February is a pretty long time. And I think, really, you’re spending a lot of time trying to learn the language and understand what’s going on and how can you help, because because that’s your role. And by the time I left, I had really done a bunch of different things. But the main thing that was, like, emerging as the most important thing was connecting families in my community, which was super rural. It was a three hour walk from the nearest, road.

[16:08] Jessica: We had I don’t think I told you guys this before, but there was a dirt road that goes along our village. It’s called Filoa. Hey, Filoa. What’s up? What’s up, Filoa? What’s up? Yes. I gathered around the Oh, I’ll send this to them. The iPad there. Right. Yeah. So three miles off the road, there’s a dirt road there. At the time that I was there, there would be a car that would go up on like, past our village on Tuesdays and another one on Thursdays. And there’s no electricity. Mhmm. There’s no running water. Mhmm. And so, I mean, think about has anyone have you been to the the Dark Sky Preserve in Oregon? No. Have you heard of this? Okay. So it’s there’s, like, not it’s just sky at night. Yeah. It’s just sky. It’s stars. Wow. Did you know they’re shooting stars all the time? All the time. All the time. Yeah. We wash it out. Yeah. We should wash it out. Anyway,

[16:55] Jessica: I was there and this thing was happening. Well, wow. I just there’s just so much. Can this podcast be, like, three hours? I can’t. It is. We’re in our third hour. That’s right. Yeah. They’re like, Jessica, I’ll get in. I’ll get in there. Bye.

[17:09] Jason: Yeah. Some of you, who we talked about driving before, you’re home. Yeah. Go inside.

[17:16] Jessica: Make food for your kids. Yeah. Just keep me on in the background. Okay. So Niger experiences a period of of famine every single year. Wow. And it’s just the way we have spring, summer, fall. They have a rainy season. They have a a drier season, they have a hunger season, and that is the language around it. It’s just how it is. Interesting. They are most folks are subsistence farmers, so they’re growing what they can based on rainfall. Mhmm.

[17:43] Jessica: They’re also a place that has not a lot of access to or or infrastructure for sanitation. Mhmm. Running there’s not running water. Where where I am. Where I was. K. Okay. So this thing starts to happen where I’m, like, my first year there, still not not, like, fluent, but but I know like, I have friends now, and I’m figuring it out. And I there are a lot of children in Niger. The fertility rate there is at at that time, and it’s only gone down a little bit. At that time, it was eight or nine

[18:15] Jessica: infants per woman. Oh. And so there’s lots of little ones around. Wow. Yeah. That Wow. I believe it’s one of the highest fertility rates in the world. But there is so so there’s a time of year when people are adults are like, okay, we have less food. We’re we’re kinda figuring out. And it’s part of the the annual cycle of things. They know it’s coming. But it’s really, really hard time to be a little kid. Yeah. Pedals are super vulnerable. Pregnant people are super vulnerable. Yeah. And,

[18:45] Jessica: just to get to the point here, I ended up working pretty closely with friends and family there whose children really, really suffered during that time of year. Because if you’re kinda lower on calories and then you get diarrhea because the water’s not clean

Jason: Yeah.

Jessica: You’re in trouble. You’re in trouble.

Jason: Yeah.

Guest: And if you’re not breastfeeding, like, if you don’t have you know, just for a number of reasons. You might you might be two, but you might have two younger siblings.

Jason: Yeah.

Guest: So probably not two, but one. And maybe your mom’s pregnant. So,

[19:18] Guest: in any case, it’s a risky time. It’s hard time to be a little a little goober.

Jason: Mhmm.

Guest: And we were super remote, but there were all of these, international nonprofits that are set up just for this kind of situation. They’re humanitarian groups that some people have heard of, like Doctors Without Borders, Concern Worldwide, Care Action Against Hunger. Like, there’s all these groups that are there, and I, started walking with people, you know, hours and hours and hours to connect them with programs that are

[19:51] Guest: either providing medical care or nutritional care

Jason: Mhmm.

Guest: for those little people.

Jason: Mhmm.

Guest: And that’s that’s like as much as I can say without just, you know, it’s it’s hard talking.

Jason: Yes.

Guest: And when I finished Peace Corps, I went I was like, you know, I’m going back to The US. What am I gonna do? And a friend of mine sent me info about a, a fellowship. Shout out, MG.

[20:19] Kathy: Yeah. Alright, MG. I told you. She’s a hip hop artist. Got you to, hey. It’s J Bliss. Yeah. It’s J Bliss.

[20:25] Guest: She’s like, this sounds like they’re doing. So I applied, and I got this fellowship to Cornell.

Jason: Mhmm.

Guest: And, and that is what that’s that’s how I ended up getting a PhD. I went back to Niger and Kenya and Ethiopia to do my research all in that kind of

Jason: Sweet. Wow.

Guest: Yeah. Did you want that much information?

Jason: We did.

Guest: Okay.

Jason: We did. We needed it. Definitely.

Guest: That’s the backdrop.

Jason: It is.

Guest: Sort of somber, but that’s the truth.

Jason: Yeah. It’s

Guest: So Reality.

Jason: That’s the reality. Yeah. Yeah.

[20:58] Jason: Well and I think listening to you, as you’ve talked about this and we’ve talked about this, I think a lot of people think about lactation and is very mama centric, right, where it’s like, let’s help these these women and everything like that. But I I get the sense that you’re you’re definitely concerned about that, but you look at it from the angle of infant nutrition is important. And, and I know that you shared statistics before about,

[21:31] Jason: overall health associated with how much how your nutrition is now affect affecting you later.

Guest: Yeah. Yeah. You want me to talk about that?

Jason: I want you to talk about that.

Guest: I will. And I will also say that I think it’s definitely true that academically, I was looking and researching outcomes related to child nutrition outcomes.

Jason: Mhmm.

Guest: And that, like, led me to all this others the doula work and then the lactation stuff emerged out of that. I’m not gonna put my hands in front of the microphone.

Jason: You’re doing great. You’re doing really good. You’re doing so well. Raul’s Raul’s thrilled over this. Yes. Watching the level of success.

[22:09] Guest: Yes. But you really can’t talk, like, fully about how an infant is doing without talking about how the mom or the parents are doing.

Jason: Okay.

Guest: And so I, I very deliberately like, I look at maternal mental health and nutrition and infant nutrition and health. Like, they are very equally like, those are very much balanced.

Jason: Mhmm.

Guest: And I try to really emphasize that when I’m working with families. Like,

[22:43] Guest: that is really where it’s at, because mom or whoever’s lactating has to be feeling great.

Jason: Yeah.

Guest: To be a great parent. You know? Right? So

Jason: Mhmm.

Guest: Every mom knows that. Everybody Every mom knows that. Right. We all wanna just feel good. But

Jason: Yeah.

Guest: Anyway. So but, yeah, some of the there’s there’s such cool breastfeeding research out there and lactation research. And at the time I was at Cornell, there was this awesome class called maternal and child nutrition.

Jason: K.

Guest: And it kicked my butt.

[23:16] Guest: Shut up, Kathy Rasmussen. Kathy, are you listening? Kathy, I’m gonna send this to you. She was a professor. She she taught hard class, Kathy. You guys, I know so many people. No. So so that’s the class. We learned about all this incredible research that’s shown, and there’s even more like, there’s so much more now. But, in so I’ll talk about the infants first because that’s what you were asking. Infants who are breastfed Real quick. Are you gonna shout out any infants?

[23:48] Jason: Shout out little monkeys. I absolutely will.

[23:51] Guest: Say no more. I will. Okay. Infants who are exclusively breastfed, that means just just breast milk for the first six of month six months of life. They have so many cool health benefits that extend into their lifetime, not just in that infancy.

Jason: Mhmm.

Guest: So that there’s there’s incredible reduced risk of diarrheal illness and respiratory illness, which aren’t major causes of death in infants in The US. But worldwide, they they are two of the three leading causes of children worldwide.

Jason: Yeah. We’re pretty insulated from that kind of stuff.

Guest: Yeah. We don’t we yeah. We are super lucky, and I know our our health care system is just

[24:35] Guest: cracking.

Jason: Yes.

Guest: And, yeah, we do still have access to clean water, and we have we do have access to health care as much as one can cope.

Jason: Yeah. Hold on. Like, it goes your fingers.

Guest: But, yeah, also reduce risk of diabetes for babies who are breastfed, reduce risk of obesity. There’s a lot of cool, longitudinal studies that are following kiddos to see, like, hey. What’s going on? But this there’s also really great benefits to the lactating parent. So every, I I think it’s for every,

[25:06] Guest: six months or two year. The studies look at different durations of time. But, the time that someone is lactating translates to reduced risk of ovarian cancer and breast cancer. And they’re, like, significant. It’s not just like a five percent reduction. It’s up in the twenties, thirty, forty percent

Jason: Oh, wow.

Guest: Reduced risk.

Jason: Wow.

Guest: So, among other things. But those are, like, pretty cool stats. And I think what what is a a nice, like, a frame of reference. Like, think about if you let’s say you’re trying to make public health recommendations.

Jason: Mhmm.

Guest: And you know that those you know about those studies and you know those facts. Like, okay. These are really cool evidence based benefits. It would be crazy to not recommend breastfeeding

Jason: Yeah. Right.

Guest: As, like, a a a goal. If you just looked at the data.

Jason: If you just looked at the data.

Guest: If you didn’t recommend that, that would be wrong to not be like, hey. This is what we know. Like, these are cool, like, reasons to do it.

Jason: Mhmm.

[26:16] Kathy: And there’s it gets really it gets really, heated as you kind of alluded to in your intro. Yes. The breast is best. Yeah. Versus what is it? Just fed is Fed is best. Fed. Fed is best. Yes. Yeah. Breast is breast is best. Do you know the historical context behind these sayings? No. Because it’s not. Please. Oh, guys. This is so interesting. Yeah. You’re gonna shut somebody out? Yeah. No. Yeah. Oh, I’m sorry. Shut

[26:40] Jason: shut somebody out. No. No. No. No. No.

[26:43] Kathy: No. I will Jason. Shout them out. I just can’t wait. Shout out. Pick a baby.

[26:50] Kathy: I’m already like, how can I do this? Yeah. Which Within the limits of HIPAA. Yeah. Uh-huh. First names only. Okay. You know what? Here’s what you can do is you can shout out a fictitious baby, but in your mind, you can feel the same. Yeah. Yeah. I think you’d be able to tell because I can’t. Okay. I don’t have, like, the liar’s face. Yeah. I can’t get it. I can’t get it. K. Okay. So let’s let’s go back. Yes. In the late eighteen hundreds k. That is around the time that infant formula, so like a substitute for milk, there were, there was some dude who was, like, making some stuff. It’s definitely I can make money off of this. Yeah. Yeah.

[27:27] Kathy: And that continued for a while. And there was a period in the, early twentieth century, so 19 early nineteen hundreds when formula was really, it was kind of viewed as, well, let me back up. It it it was viewed as, like, an a fancier better Oh, okay. Like, better quote than breast milk. And it was associated with class. So if you’re breastfeeding, you would do that because you’re poor. And if you’re Interesting. If you can afford formula, you would. Okay. Yeah. You would have, like maybe you would hire a wet nurse. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. Maybe.

[28:04] Kathy: Yeah. And there’s all all this other I mean, and this is also kind of, like, focused on Western Mhmm. History and European. So culture and history. So this is just, like, one chunk of the globe. But, in The US, by, like, the forties, fifties, formula feeding was pretty much what everyone was doing. Yeah. And breastfeeding rates dropped like super duper low. Wow. And, so that was happening. And in the seventies, and you guys has anyone here heard of Nestle? Oh, yeah. Yes. Okay.

[28:37] Kathy: Nestle started this super aggressive marketing campaign in developing countries to promote formula. Oh, no. Saying like, this is what you should feed your baby. This is what people are feeding their baby in all around. And sure, in The US at that time, it was you could safely prepare formula for a baby. We have clean water. Yeah. And I and, like, nutritionally, it Sure. They’ve they’ve done and now, like, in terms of, nutritional value, it’s some they’re they’re doing great. They have those great formulas out there.

[29:13] Kathy: But a lot of babies died because Yes. You can’t there are people who were buying this expensive formula, because they thought it was the right best thing to do. Sure. Because they were getting super aggressively marketed. Yeah. And diluting it with water that wasn’t clean because they didn’t have any water. So simultaneously, reducing caloric intake overall because it’s diluted and maybe sick. So they there was like a big 1977 boycott. Okay. And this some person wrote a book called Breast is Best. And it was basically trying to reclaim

[29:47] Kathy: Mhmm. Like some lost knowledge about the physiological processes of lactation, the immunological protection, which is huge. Because, you know, I mentioned, we can really do some cool mimicking of the nutritional content of breast milk. Mhmm. But the immunological stuff, that is, like Yeah. So you’re talking, like, microbiomes. I’m talking about, yeah, like, 2,000,000 living cells in a couple drops of colostrid or breast milk. Yeah. That you that’s that’s just why it’s so awesome. You can’t get that powdered form. You cannot. You cannot. But, yeah, that’s the story. Breast is best was, like, we’re gonna try to reclaim, like, help, like, get breastfeeding rates back up. Yeah. And and then there’s been, you know, ever since

[30:28] Kathy: I’m sure kinda when you were talking about the stereotypes, those exist because some crazy people were like, yeah. Breast is best. Oh, like, loser. Yeah.

[30:37] Jason: Yeah. And Okay. So here’s here’s one of the the things that I think people get hit over the head with. Yeah. Because, not not every woman can. Totally. Right. Right. Totally. And, like, they can’t And not every infant, actually, is gonna be It’s not it’s not a natural thing. And this is why we need lactation consultants. Right. Well, I Good question. And, like, it doesn’t come naturally. Yeah. That’s what I mean. It doesn’t come naturally. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. It doesn’t come with, like, a manual or anything. Right. Exactly. And I think that,

[31:10] Jason: you know, because I’m I I know some of these women, and it could be a a real source of shame. Right? Because it’s like, I know that this is good for my kid. I know that it’s the best thing. Totally. But it’s also ruining our lives. Yeah. Or Yeah. I’m losing my mind. Yeah. Exactly.

[31:26] Kathy: Yeah. So I think I think that’s really difficult. Like, how do you how do you deal with that? Or how do you deal with people around? We gotta talk about it because that is so true. And I wanna just touch on what you had said because I often I think people are often,

[31:41] Kathy: they’re like, I thought this was gonna be easy or uncomfortable. And I like to frame it as so there’s lactation, which is like a physiological process of making milk. Okay. And there’s breastfeeding, which is a behavior that two people have to learn. It’s a baby and it’s the parent. And the you gotta learn. Those are skills. You have to learn them and it can be hard. And so, yeah. That’s I don’t know what you’re making me think of. Anyway, yeah. So to get to where you were getting at, Jason. In The US, sixty percent of women stop breastfeeding before they wanted to. Whether that meant on day one or day two or week three, three weeks in, or however long. People aren’t a lot of people start with this intent to breastfeed because they they they do know. They they’ve heard something or maybe they’ve heard a ton. Mhmm. Or maybe they’re looking at TikTok and they’re feeling like, gotta get them all. Which is a proof of TikTok. Yeah. Yeah.

[32:33] Kathy: Education.

[32:34] Jason: Yeah. When you translate TikTok from Chinese, it’s Why is it? It’s like, make you feel guilty. Really, really guilty. Shame. Yeah. Shame. Shame. Yeah. Shame. To hip hop.

[32:47] Kathy: I I don’t know what I was talking about. Oh, yeah. Okay. So so a lot of people start off. I would say Yeah. In The US, we actually I think it’s over eighty percent of people start Mhmm. Trying breast to breastfeed when they’re in the hospital, if they have a hospital breakfast. But sixty percent of women stop before they want to. Wow. And they’re like, why? What’s going on? And it’s those people the women you’re alluding to are the people that I work with. Mhmm. Men see. It’s like

[33:12] Kathy: things aren’t working out the way they wanted to or the way they’d hoped or expected. And, there are cool studies looking at this qualitative work that shows the the main reasons people stop before they want to are it nipple pain, either it’s like you know, it’s can hurt. Yeah. That is no joke. Yeah. That is no joke. But some of it’s not just nipple pain. It’s like nipple damage. Yes. Yeah. I mean, like, nipples

[33:38] Jason: come off. Oh my gosh. That’s that’s that out if you Yeah. The the thing that’s funny is you’re shielding your hand from us, but you’re talking to my room.

[33:48] Jason: To the good people. Yeah. Hey, everybody at home. Totally. Nipples gonna happen to you. What I hear you. Yeah. The nipple comes off.

[33:57] Kathy: Okay. I that damage. Can be so this is okay. If you’re listening and you’re pregnant Yeah. This is not gonna happen to you, because you’re gonna call me. Yes. Yes. And we’re gonna let that happen. .Org.

[34:09] Jason: Dotorg. Yes. Dotorg.

[34:11] Kathy: Dotorg. Mhmm. She’s gonna help you. Nipples don’t typically come off. Oh. But if things are really, really rough, they can be cracked, bleeding Yeah. Really sore. And often, I’ll I’ll, like, get a call and, you know, be asking, okay. How are things going? Why are you calling? Well, how can I help? Yeah. And things are going really well, actually. Okay. And I’m kind of, great. How are your nipples? They’re bleeding. Things aren’t going

[34:35] Kathy: well. Can we back up to what you think about that means? We can do better. We can do better. Yeah. Because there’s a reason that’s happening, and my job is to figure out why. I would like to change our my name type, not my name. I actually do wanna change my name. That’s a different like, j blues to Yeah. I’ll Just see. This is gonna be embarrassing. I think I should be named Tig, Cause I went to the Cygnocara Potter and I really wanna be named Tig, but, I know that that’s not related. We have how much time? Okay. Okay.

[35:08] Kathy: And we’re back. And we’re back. I don’t think that my profession should be called lactation consultant. No. Because you’re way too, like, corporate. Yes. And I think it should be You should have a weakness. Helping them make

[35:22] Jason: make milk.

[35:23] Kathy: I You’re helping I’m like Get the milk out. Yeah. We’re trying to we’re looking we’re we’re working with families. I don’t know. Someone I I did a workshop a few years ago. For, like, key performance indicators. Yes. Like that. Hey. Bring up a spreadsheet about Yes. About your Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Mergers, acquisition.

[35:42] Kathy: I would love the name to be different. I had an idea just now, but it’s gone. Okay. In in any case, it yeah. I think it will come back. But so yeah, so people stop before they want to. Yeah. For top of the reasons. Nipple pain. Yeah. They’re really worried the baby’s not getting enough Yes. Which can be legitimate. Mhmm. So The babies aren’t getting enough. Yeah. And then so they’re wondering about their milk supply. Sure. And then the third reason is the lack of support because we don’t have any federally mandated paid parental leave in this country, and people don’t have time to stay home and figure it out. And even people who do, it still might not work.

[36:18] Jason: Well and can I add 3.5, which is bullying?

[36:20] Kathy: Oh, gosh. Yeah. I mean, you know what I mean by that? Social, like, the, like what yeah. No. Tell me more. By not you,

[36:27] Jason: lactation consultant. Yeah. Not me. I would not Yeah. I mean, because I’ve seen some where, like, they they made it worse rather than better. Yeah. Because I think some of them just kinda skate in there with this idea, and they literally are wearing skates. Right? Ice skates, roller skates. Never roller blades. No. But it’s the case gonna know because I’m going on roller blades. Yes. Yeah. Skateboarding. Gonna know. Yeah. Some of them will come in on a skateboard. Like, they’ll ollie onto the scene. Discuss it. And they’ll be like,

[36:55] Jason: oh, you know, it’s simple. Like, oh, you’re just No. Yeah. All you need to do is this. So easy. And it’s just It’s so true. I’ve seen that firsthand. Yeah. And, it’s not good. It just Right. It makes it makes husbands and moms just wanna punch people for faces.

[37:15] Kathy: And me too. I you’re absolute that’s absolutely right. I think if I had to do, like, a pie chart of my job, there is a portion of it that is designated damage control. Right? What have people been seeing? Yes. How does that make you feel? Like, how did that

[37:31] Kathy: if one of your first fundamental feelings as a new parent is failure

[37:36] Jason: Mhmm. That sucks. Yes. You’re gonna have plenty of opportunities to feel bad about it. Wait until they’re older. Yes.

[37:43] Kathy: So many opportunities. So many. Don’t let it be like, yeah, it’s just so when I walk into a a home and I haven’t met the family yet, you don’t know what you’re walking into. You don’t know if that person was told their nipples were weird at the hospital, you know, or or whatever. Boobs. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Because people are told things or they have conceptions about themselves. And I think parents

[38:07] Kathy: moms are really inclined to think that if there is an issue, it’s with them. Right. Because no one wants to look at this, you know, new human. It’s obviously the dad’s fault. Yeah. Usually. Obviously. Yes. Right. Well, I think this is probably, like, menopause. Our moms didn’t talk about it either. Right. Right? So Totally. Like, our generation

[38:26] Jason: of mothers Yeah. Is like, well, I don’t know. My mom’s made it seem like it was easy. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Or She was probably bleeding. Exactly.

[38:33] Kathy: Well, I would say so I was thinking about how you have all these people listening to your podcast, and I just won alt million. Mhmm.

[38:41] Kathy: I wonder if Now Indonesia. Some I know. Shout out, Roman. That’s a baby.

[38:49] Jason: Yeah. Okay. There we go. Right? Yeah. Sweet. He was my favorite. Probably not anymore. Probably not a baby anymore. Baby anymore. He was a baby when I was Okay. He’s not a baby when I’ll shout out another baby in a minute. Is he, like, an older baby now? He’s a teenager. Oh. That’s the oldest baby. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He’s a big old baby.

[39:10] Kathy: Don’t know what I was saying.

[39:11] Jason: Oh, you were talking about moms. Minimalism. And your audience, which I’m kinda curious when this episode pops up. Yes. If you decide that it’s worthy.

[39:23] Jason: We’re trust me. We’re not deleting anything. It never ends. Yeah. I don’t know.

[39:27] Kathy: Oh my god, Kathy. We might just stay here. Oh my god. Oh.

[39:34] Kathy: Yeah. Call me back.

[39:36] Jason: Well, just show them the best guest and see if they’re cool with Part two. I wanna part two. Oh, a 100% part two.

[39:43] Kathy: Again, the same thought keeps leaving. Oh, no. Okay. So I just hear like, when people okay. I’m talking directly to you, pitch podcast. Listen, people. Look. If you’ve listened this far, I am curious if if people who are lactating or about to lactate or who recently they’re like, oh, yeah. This episode’s for me, and everyone else thinks it’s not. And I would challenge that because of something you just said, Kathy, which is, like, wouldn’t it be cool to listen to this episode and think about all the people in your life who

[40:14] Kathy: were ever an infant? Okay? First, start there.

Jason: Nobody’s coming to mind.

[40:21] Kathy: Nobody’s coming to mind. And then

[40:25] Kathy: think about I’m it’s good. Isn’t it good? This is good material. This is so good. This is good content. You think about, like, are you curious about what their experience was either nursing a baby? Like, is it your mom? Is your is your grandma still alive? Mhmm. Is the person listening to this in the car, is your grandma still alive? Mhmm. This is your opportunity to call and be like, hey, this might come out out of nowhere,

[40:47] Kathy: but did you breastfeed Yeah. Anybody? Like, what was that like? It’s it’s interesting. You might get some cool information that who cares if it’s about lactation or breastfeeding, but when you talk about what parenthood was like with your grandparents Yeah. Or your parents. It’s a conversation starter. Everybody wants to talk about that. Absolutely.

[41:04] Kathy: Or maybe they will now. Yeah. All the family reunions this summer, we’re gonna talk about breastfeeding.

[41:10] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. See how it goes. Mhmm. At the family meeting, You know? It’s like, hey. I know we’re about to eat dinner, but just real quick. Just real quick. What’s your favorite thing you ever drink? Yeah. Yeah.

[41:23] Kathy: I guarantee you. If you remember, I’m serious.

[41:29] Jason: Does breastfeeding correlate to IQ? Yes.

[41:34] Kathy: Are you okay? They’re actually yeah. Yeah. Okay. And this there okay. Yes. There were some really cool studies. I think they were done in the Ukraine. And to be very fair, I don’t know if they have been replicated, so I will get out to you. We’ve got we’ve got some opinions from Eastern European

[41:50] Jason: research. Yes. We’ve watched. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Uh-huh. Peptides.

[41:53] Jason: Peptides. Yeah. There’s Oh, okay. A whole bunch of stuff we need to get over to the Eastern blocks to find out. University. But continue. So let’s put this on the list. We need to follow-up.

[42:03] Kathy: But, yeah, they were tracking exclusively breastfed infants, with comparison groups, and there were cool, interesting differences in some intelligence scores Mhmm. That did not last for the lifetime. So don’t worry. Well, I just worry. I think they were tested at, like, five years in Yeah. In elementary school. And you can overcome if you were formally about it. I’m not saying this. I’m not saying this. Especially if you got the good Nestle stuff. Well, this this would be a fun game when you see the family this summer. Yeah. Who here was Brad’s back? Yeah.

[42:37] Jason: Oh, that’s what I thought. I’ll call Ernest. Yeah. Now put your hand down. Put your hand down, Ernie.

[42:43] Kathy: Yeah. No. Not you. Formula, baby. Awesome. And I just to be clear Okay. Sorry. No. No. You don’t need anything. It’s it is all in the spirit of, like, it’s good to talk about it and laugh about it, I think. Yeah. I think it’s great. Because therein lies the, like, the nuance Yes. And what people are actually thinking Right. And wondering. And I just want folks to know. I think the families I work with know this. Like,

[43:07] Kathy: I don’t actually have any any agenda about how they’re feeding their babies. Yeah. And I think, by an like, huge just I just care about how people feel about it. Mhmm. How people feel about how they feed their babies really does matter. Yeah. And, so that’s what it’s about for me.

[43:27] Jason: I can can you bust a few myths for us? Yeah. Do I

[43:32] Kathy: Well When you say She’s gonna he’s gonna bring it out. Yeah. Okay. Ready? Say yeah. I’m ready or not.

[43:37] Jason: Pump and dump after a glass of wine or the baby gets the alcohol. No. It’s fine. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. How are you supposed to get your baby drunk?

[43:45] Kathy: Jason. Oh, you didn’t see where that was going, did you? Okay. So yeah. So men. Yeah. Okay. So Okay. Because I know that there’s women who worry a lot about that. Like,

[43:55] Kathy: you gotta get their diet exactly tuned in. I have to take us on a small tangent. Small tangent. Twenty second. We’re good at this. My website has been getting blasted nationally, and I’ve been getting calls from other places, which is Okay. My problem. Out of the state, you mean? Other stars? Others other states. Yeah. Other states. Okay. Good. Not inter not

[44:19] Kathy: international space station. Yeah. Currently. Okay. No. I’ve been getting calls from out of state, and they’re they have been hilarious. They think that it’s a hotline. And this is, again, this is on me. I’m gonna look directly in the camera. Jessica Okay. Okay. It’s on you to get this fixed. They think it’s a hotline, And I have gotten the following questions. Jason.

[44:43] Jason: I’m listening.

[44:44] Kathy: Hi. I am a grandma and I’m calling on behalf of my daughter.

[44:50] Kathy: She’s been eating way too much fried chicken and she’s breastfeeding. Is this gonna harm the baby? Oh, my god. I have gotten I wanna go to the gym. Can I drink protein shakes? I’m breastfeeding. Is this Yes. It’s fine. Every it’s always fine.

Jason: Are you calling these people back?

Kathy: No. They call me, and I answer.

Jason: I’m like Oh, you answer? Answer. And I’m like, hey. Where are you? How do you answer?

Kathy: I’m in Florida. How do you answer? What’s your question?

[45:18] Jason: Yeah. Brightstar.org,

[45:20] Jason: lactation consulting

[45:22] Kathy: Well, the truth is I’m I was like, I need to check where you’re from, where you are because I’m in Oregon, and I do home business. And I’m a clinician. Yeah. And I have a license. I can’t be doing clinical advice Yeah. Over the telepa. No. But what’s your question?

[45:37] Jason: Yeah. Oh my gosh. K. I got I kinda wish you could record this because I would love to hear them. They’re very much. They’ve actually all been from the South. So this A bit. Yeah. That tracks. Alright. How about the next one? Let’s hear it. It. If your baby wants to nurse again an hour later, your milk is not rich enough yet. No. Your baby just wants to nurse.

[45:56] Kathy: Oh. It’s that But milk’s fine? Yeah. Your milk’s fine. Oh. They’re hungry. You’re not using your backup supply? It is a very, very unusual for there to be something strange about milk composition. Okay. Milk composition is dynamic, and it’s sick, you guys. It changes over the course of twenty four hours. Yeah. Like Like sick and not bad. Bad. Dope. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. Says it’s sick. It changes in the course of the twenty four hour period. Mhmm. Guys, I’m blowing your minds. Yes. You are absolutely blowing my mind. Course of feeding. Like Yes.

[46:28] Jason: Wow.

[46:29] Kathy: Yes. We’re guys, I’m serious. It’s hyperdynamic.

[46:31] Jason: Yeah. Sweet. Okay. What about this one? Formula fed babies sleep longer through the night.

[46:37] Kathy: That’s an interesting one. I also wanna step back once and just add something to your last one, which was sometimes babies do nurse really often because they aren’t getting enough. I just wanna normalize that. Don’t worry. I’m doing my job. It’s normal. It’s yeah. It’s also, it’s super normal to nurse frequently if you have a newborn. Okay. Yeah. Alright. Okay. Formula fed babies. So here’s an interesting thing, because I get this question a lot. Mhmm.

[47:01] Kathy: Newborns need to wake up. Their brains wake them up Mhmm. To stay alive. Is it survival it’s is it a strategy even? It’s a survival necessity. It’s definitely turned off by the time they’re teenagers. It turns off. Yes. That’s right. They their brains need to wake them up. And Mhmm. That is just a very important point. So there will be babies whose bellies are very full, and they’re still going to wake up. Mhmm. And it’s not because they’re hungry. Okay. It’s because their bot their brain is like, are we breathing?

[47:32] Kathy: Oh, we’re breathing. Oh, okay. Okay. Alright. And now that we’re breathing, like, I’d like to go back to sleep. So can you nurse me? Because that’s how it gets to your last used to go in that sleep. Mechanism.

[47:42] Jason: Okay. K. So formula fed babies are not sleeping longer. They have that same mechanism.

[47:46] Kathy: If if the so oh god. This is a really big one. We should have led with this one in the beginning of that episode, because I think anecdotally, a lot of people say that that is the case. Okay. I don’t believe there is any research to back that up. Okay. And formula is made

Jason: I’m a chiropractor, so I understand it very well.

Kathy: Formula is made to have the same caloric contact as breast milk. It’s 22 kilocalories

[48:10] Kathy: per whatever unit ounce, something. Yeah. And,

[48:15] Jason: so Confidently, I said, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for backing me up. Yeah. They teach us in chiropractic school Right. About how many calories per ounce. Kilo kilo. Yeah. They probably colored that covered that for you too. Right? Yes. Yes. You’re on it. Yeah. It’s I think it does Yeah. We’re surprised you do that actually.

[48:30] Kathy: To digest. Yeah. It is a little harder to digest, so it might be, like, in their system for a little longer anyway. Okay. I can’t say that there’s evidence. So so that’s gonna we’re gonna have to do myth. Alright. Okay. Yeah. What about this? Oatmeal fenugreek

[48:44] Kathy: Oh. Lactation cookies proven to boost supply. Myth. Myth. Yeah. Yeah. There’s a lot your freaking cookies. Yeah. Yeah. It is gonna lift your mood and keep you, you know, feeling happy.

[48:56] Jason: What about this one? Exclusive breastfeeding works as birth control. Oh, these are great. Don’t answer that one. Just let people find out the hard way. Okay.

Kathy: I have to set step back to for the kids. I’m just, like, I I can’t, like, I’m just such a verbal processor. It’s like a nightmare for a podcast, isn’t it?

[49:14] Jason: We’re doing good. We’re doing great. Okay. Great. So You’re a great spot. Are am I doing great? You’re doing amazing. Some people out there who are like, where has she been? Oh, exactly. Is this the best actor? Exactly. Good. Is there a way that we can replace Jason?

[49:30] Kathy: Actually, on my way here, I was like, you know what? The biggest compliment would be is if you invited me to join your podcast. We’re inviting you to join the podcast. In. Okay. You’re definitely getting a Wiki answer. That’s right. For sure. No doubt. Alright. There are galactagogues. You know this word? This is like things like Oh, like galactose?

[49:47] Kathy: Yeah. Like Yes. Things that are supposed to increase milk production. Okay. The lactogog. And the whole they’re like, every culture has something. And I think probably they do work and help. I’m sure that there are things that you can take that will boost something in some way. We don’t have like great studies. And I wanna be able to say to someone like, yeah, if you take that Fenugreek or here eat 12 eat a dozen cookies. Mhmm. It’s gonna increase your milk supply by 12%. And I can’t say anything like that. Yeah. So that’s why I answered that question. There’s a there’s a weird one, though. Cabbage in the broth. That helps. What?

[50:26] Kathy: Yeah. That’s not for milk production, though. Don’t get confused. That is that is the opposite. Okay. Okay. So there’s two cold cabbage leaf in the broth. Just the leaf, not the head. No.

[50:38] Jason: Oh my god. One on each side.

[50:40] Kathy: Now that you mention it Polaroids.

[50:44] Jason: Yeah.

[50:45] Kathy: No. For someone who is having breast pain and it’s it’s, inflammation heat, it’s like engorgement, whatever, the cabbage can be cooling Yeah. At least for a few minutes. Okay. So happy cabbage, could it be like romaine? Well, it could be romaine, but I think cabbage

[51:02] Kathy: specifically has something in it Mhmm. That can it’s not gonna, like, go, hey, kill your milk supply, but there I’ll have to I’ll have to look up and see what it is. There there is a compound in cabbage that can help kind of And you don’t wanna boil it first. Nah. No. Nah. Nah. Nah. It’s like She’s rocking at it for a second. Yeah. It’s like Okay. Jason Does coleslaw work? Myth or fact? Okay. Does boiled cabbage make you want to snuggle an infant?

[51:33] Kathy: The smell. I’m talking about the smell. I’ll tell you this.

[51:36] Jason: I don’t need boiled cabbage to want to snuggle an infant.

[51:41] Kathy: That was the question. Yeah.

[51:45] Jason: I I will snuggle an infant anytime, anywhere You have a regardless of what kind of, like Oh, man. You know, it could be, a carrot. It could be a root vegetable. It could be, you know, a fruit. But not a durian. Yeah. I I yeah. Even that, I’m taking it. Yeah. Yeah. Trans fats even will make me wanna smell it. Oh. I love little babies. Yes. I love them. Yeah. I love babies. They’re great. Cool. Don’t really care for what they become.

[52:13] Jason: Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. When they’re little babies, that’s great. I you know, if there was maybe some sort of a return program or something like that, where you just cycle through a new a new little infant or something like that. Okay. Not to, like, go back to somber, but there is like, you could foster. I could foster. Okay. My wife wants me to stop talking to you. Oh my goodness. Your question about pregnancy,

[52:40] Kathy: yes. It exclusive breastfeeding around the clock twenty four hours is considered a form of birth control. It’s not 100%.

[52:49] Jason: Okay. Wow. Yeah. I bet you I bet you there’s somebody out there that’s, saying that’s BS.

Kathy: It it you are. The high weight. Totally. That’s the thing is, like, it’s not 100%, and you really have to be around the clock. And I think it’s only for the first six months. Okay. Yeah. So yeah.

[53:05] Jason: I think it’s game time. It is absolutely game time. Great for a game. Does that mean we’re done? No. No. No. No. No. Oh, I remember just getting Means means the end is nine.

[53:13] Kathy: Yes. Uh-huh. Yes. Oh, I didn’t get to share a fact with you.

Jason: I’d love to hear a fact.

Kathy: Okay.

[53:19] Kathy: Good listeners. What were you taught about mammals in second grade, third grade? What are the characteristics? They’ve got hair. Mhmm. They’ve got hair. Good.

[53:29] Jason: Me. Oh, god. They produce milk.

[53:32] Kathy: They produce milk. Yeah. So I had the whales. Hot blooded. Good. Yeah. Good. Good.

[53:37] Kathy: And I think there’s there’s another one that has to do with how the babies are born.

Jason: Oh, inside. Oh, yeah. Not not I got bored. They’re indoors.

[53:48] Kathy: Live birth. Yes. Yes. Live, not night. They don’t come from eggs. Look very good. They don’t cut well, I come from storks. They come from Guess what? Mammals aren’t the only animals that produce

[54:03] Jason: milk. Lizards do, don’t they? There are some amphibians.

[54:06] Kathy: Yeah. There are pigeons. Yes. Cockroaches.

[54:11] Jason: Yeah.

[54:12] Kathy: Jumping spiders.

[54:14] Jason: Oat, almond stew also. Oh my god. Nuts. We’re going into nuts. Coconuts. Very good. Chickpeas. Soybeans. Coconuts feed their young

[54:24] Kathy: with coconut milk. You I’m surprised you didn’t know this. How did you not know this? I never thought about they do have nipples, though. They do. Mhmm. They got three. Three nipples. It’s lucky. Yeah. Actually, third nipple is changing the name of your business. Yes. Third nipple’s run-in my family. Do they really? Yeah. My husband’s family. Okay. Well Not mine. But not my children. Do you think that he wants you talking about this on the pug? Sorry, sweetie. But maybe maybe think about changing the name of your business to coconut lactation. Oh.

[54:54] Kathy: Yeah.

[54:55] Jason: I think third nipple. Third nipple? Because that’s, like, I got you. It’s kinda like a third eye, third nipple. That guy. It’s the inward nipple. We got you. Yes. Yeah. You don’t The metaphysical nipple. This is the game. That’s better than two nipples. I don’t know if the game is as good as that. Actually, this game is pretty good. This one’s good. We test we test ran a few of these with Raul Yes. Who blushed. And so I think we’re good. I’d love to play. Ready? I’m ready. This is called real product or fever dream. Okay? I’m gonna read you a product name and its pitch.

[55:27] Jason: And then, you are going to tell us if this is a real product or a fake product. Awesome. You ready? Yeah. Okay. Number one. I’m gonna and I lose if I laugh while I finish. This game. Alright. Here we go. Yeah. Okay. Number one. I’m ready. Booby trap. That’s real. Wait. Oh, sorry. It’s a nursing bra with a built in leak alarm that buzzes your phone when your pads are saturated. Real or fake?

[55:56] Kathy: Holy. I’m sorry. Let’s just I want it to be real.

Jason: That is actually fake. But you can make it real.

Kathy: We could make it real. Make it real. Let’s go. Wow. This is really good. Alright.

[56:08] Jason: Item number two. Oh my god. What is this? Hot milk. Maternity and nursing lingerie, bra sleepwear What? And, the stuff designed to make you feel, to not make you feel like a utility closet postpartum.

Kathy: That’s false.

Jason: That is absolutely real. God. I’m trouble at this. Yeah. We gotta I guess we gotta get the folks the hot milk on the show. Hot milk. Alright. Hot milk.

[56:35] Jason: The Utter Woman. The Utter Woman? Yes. A a boutique mobile lactation service that rolls up to your house in a cow print van. Let’s go with I would like that to be true true also. You would like it to be true, but it is not. I’m 33.

[56:51] Kathy: Yeah. I mean, I’m 03. Yeah. 33.

[56:54] Jason: Cathy, could you, get on Cornell’s website? Just look her up. Okay. Alright. Look me up. Here we go. Should we just keep playing till you get one? I I have I’ve yeah. Do you have more? I I got a I am so bad at that. Moo moo mama.

[57:10] Jason: Subscription Cal print nursing ponchos. Ew. New print every month.

Kathy: No. That is fake.

Jason: Okay. Now You got it. Roll. She’s on a roll. Okay. She’s on a one Did you make these out? Or or did you ask?

Kathy: Oh, we rely heavily on two things on the show. A Wikipedia and AI.

Jason: That’s right. Right. Mhmm.

[57:28] Kathy: Nothing’s real.

Jason: Booby bars, lactation snack bars, oat and superfood, the supply store kind, founded by an RN, IBCLC, which you are an IBCLC.

[57:42] Kathy: I think that’s probably real.

Jason: That is real. Yeah. As a Boobie bar. Boobie bars. It’s just like a lot of marketing to be like here. You know? Yeah. You are so vulnerable.

[57:51] Jason: Theme they’re kind of the theme with all of these. Yeah. It’s it’s terrible. It’s like people come up with names that make you go. Yeah. Okay. Let’s see. Hooters.

[58:02] Kathy: Yes. Let’s say that that’s true.

[58:05] Jason: It’s the original nursing cover brand, structured cover with rigid neckline so you can see the baby. Wait. They’re claiming to be the original one? The,

[58:15] Kathy: yeah. Like, the OG?

[58:17] Jason: Yeah. K. Because that as a product Hang on. Don’t go from being correct to incorrect. Okay. It’s real. Is it? Okay. Okay. Okay. It is. I’m not gonna let you do that. How about this? Bamboobies. Yeah. I sure I I have some of them. You know what that is? What is it?

[58:32] Kathy: Bamboo pads Yes. Are reusable, washable that you can put in your bra Yes. To absorb leaking milk. Absolutely. And it comes with nipple bowl. Yes. Nailed it. Yeah. Shout out, bamboobies.

[58:44] Kathy: That’s right.

[58:47] Jason: Let’s go, bamboobies. How about Bebe Olay? Yes. Bebe Olay. It’s nursing covers, and accessories actually been a parent brand behind hooter hiders.

[58:59] Kathy: Probably true. It is true. Well, I’m doing better as time goes on. Okay. They just it’s kind of like people sit around and brainstorm kind of funny names and then create the product that goes with it. And I know because this is something that I do at home with my husband and our friends.

[59:18] Jason: Alright. We got one more. This one this one’s the championship round, and this one’s because Raul will ask me to throw it in here. Okay. My breast friend. That’s real. Oh. Yeah. What is it?

[59:30] Kathy: She’s an amazing Instagram Uh-huh. Are you talking about her account? I don’t know. Okay. She’s awesome. She if you’re talking about a person. There’s also a nursing pillow. Yes. Yeah. A breastfeeding pillow. Yeah. It’s great for twins. It’s a little bit firmer than the other ones. That’s real. Yeah. But there’s also an account.

[59:48] Kathy: Shout out to you, Internet. She’s a she’s actually a great resource. She’s killing me. It’s probably the last time we’ve ever been. She’s like, you’re a lost guest.

[60:09] Kathy: Oh. So she has good advice?

[60:14] Kathy: You should

[60:15] Kathy: I just wanna clarify.

[60:16] Kathy: She is good. She is a good resource. Okay. She’s she’s done a lot of exclusive pumping, which we haven’t talked about on this show yet. Part two coming.

[60:25] Kathy: Hardcore.

[60:26] Kathy: That is hardcore exclusive bumping, not for the faint of heart.

[60:30] Jason: Yeah. Okay. I think we need to change the name of the podcast to the pitchl podcast. The pitchl Yeah. The pitchl milk? The pitchl The the pitchl. Pitchl because for l will be lactation. Absolutely.

[60:41] Kathy: Oh, is that what that stands for? Okay. I was p d. Didn’t know. C h. Yes. Yeah. I didn’t know until now. And there’s no I in it. Yeah. No. Welcome to the show. But there could be an I l c. Yeah? Yeah. Could be just an l. Yeah. I’ll take as many lectures as you can. Vintage. Yeah. It really gets cold. Okay. Alright. Kathy, what are what are the takes to I don’t even I don’t know where to begin.

Kathy: I know. We didn’t even get to Catacombs.

Jason: We didn’t.

[61:13] Jason: Oh, wait. Okay. No. Yeah. But you guys talked about this. Part two. Need to know I just need to know real quick. Can you give me the short version? I have. Because because you came in here, and Kathy’s like, did you sleep above the ground?

Kathy: I have I

[61:26] Kathy: what? I know. Isn’t that creepy?

[61:28] Kathy: Uh-huh. That’s a really good question. K. I have a history of taking my family on vacations to places where we end up being underground.

[61:41] Jason: Girl, are you unmarketing your business right now? I mean, we’ve been trying to build you up.

[61:47] Kathy: I am actually a very professional person. I’m oh my god. I know. That’s what it sounds. I’m not a vampire. Yeah. No. Because in fact, she hates it. Yeah. Oh, you do? I don’t like it at all. It’s an accident, and it keeps happening to me. Yeah. I don’t wanna be underground. Oh my gosh. Okay. Yeah. I belong as as a voice in the echoing underground caves suggested, I belong above ground. Okay. Anyway does not belong there. This I just we can cut all this out if we don’t think your listeners want to hear. Is gonna be back for our episode on mental health. It’s gonna be it’s gonna be awesome. Mental health, my friends. Everybody’s.

[62:25] Jason: I Okay. You know, having IB is an honor. Kathy, do you have your take on that?

[62:32] Kathy: Breastfeeding is linked. Breastfeeding is linked to higher IQ. I’m going with that one. And child survival. Child survival. Lots of good things. Maternal mental health is Mhmm. Super duper important right on there. So, if you’re struggling

[62:45] Jason: Yes. And my take home, actually something from preshow, which I’ve got great news for everybody. Apparently, the hole in the ozone layer is closing. Yeah. Yeah. You’re welcome. Yeah. Yeah. We found out by twenty forty, we’re all gonna be safe Yeah. You’re welcome. If there’s anything left. Yes. So, yeah, that’s that’s from before the show. So you’re like, where did that come from? Well, you’re gonna have to rewatch the whole episode. It’s in there. And, I really appreciate the things that you had to say for, families where this is difficult. Right?

Kathy: Yeah. Because it doesn’t come naturally to everybody. And I think, it’s so important to get somebody like you. If you’re in this area, definitely you

Jason: Yes. In the game before you have the baby in the picture. So comes out.

Kathy: Yeah. So if you’re

Jason: They are inside. Inside.

Kathy: They are inside, not in an egg.

Jason: No. What’s, what’s the ideal jumping on point? Thirty weeks along?

Kathy: Yep.

Jason: Okay.

Kathy: Anytime. I have people contact me

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy: Right when they find out.

Jason: Okay. I just put you on my calendar.

Kathy: Yeah.

Jason: You’re gonna want J Bliss in the game.

Kathy: You do. That’s also a great name for a lactation company. J Bliss in the game.

Jason: Yeah. Take your time. The name of your first album.

Kathy: There’s, like, Bliss all over baby and pregnancy stuff. Like, Bliss. List. List. That. So I

Jason: Yeah. Dump it. Dump it. Okay.

[64:03] Kathy: Okay. What are your takeaways? Oh.

Jason: Yeah. You get you get some too.

Kathy: Yes. What a risk we’re taking. Oh, gosh.

[64:10] Kathy: I just I feel great grateful

Jason: Mhmm.

Kathy: That you put up with this. This has been a treat. This has been an absolute blast.

Jason: Yeah. I have fun with you guys. I think you’re great.

Kathy: So much fun. Thank you so much. I don’t think me to come on here.

[64:26] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t think my face has ever hurt so much. From nothing. I’m not even mad that I have to go back and bleep out a couple words.

[64:33] Jason: I think only one. My jaw hurts. It was a I think there was three.

Kathy: Oh, really? Or four

Jason: No. I heard one.

Kathy: Words.

Jason: No. Oh. Yeah. All me. It wasn’t Kathy.

Kathy: Alright. No. We love you. That was

Jason: No. This is such

Kathy: Love you guys.

Jason: Such a good time. Amazing. We’re gonna have to bring you back.

Kathy: Oh, no. We need time.

Jason: Yes. Mhmm. Cool. Okay. Oh, and there is one more important thing that we should get to, and that is that there is no I in pitch.