Does Acupuncture Actually Work? Science vs. Placebo Explained

[0:00] Jason: Hey, what kind of crazy woo-woo stuff have we had on this podcast lately? Kathy: Jason, we are not doing another episode on chiropractic already. Jason: Okay. Haha. All right. What I want to talk about today isn’t really woo-woo, but it is one of the oldest forms of health care in the world. Kathy: Yes, you’re talking about acupuncture. And today we have one of our favorite health care providers on, and she’s going to tell us all about it. Jason: Yeah. We’re going to find out just what are those needles doing? Who needs it? And what does the science say about

[0:30] acupuncture? Kathy: Yeah, of course. We’re always going to — we’re going to bust some myths. Everybody’s going to want to watch this one till the end. Jason: Yeah. Is that when we get to the point? Kathy: No, Jason, please. No bad puns. Jason: Ah, fine. This is the PTCH. What happens when a chiropractor and a physical therapist get together to make a health and wellness podcast? Kathy: Chiropractors and physical therapists don’t like each other. Oh, think again. Kathy: I’m Dr. Kathy Lynch, physical therapist who likes to help people move and get stronger. Jason: I’m Dr. Jason Young, an evidence-based

[1:00] chiropractor who uses humor just as much as adjustments to help people get better. Kathy: Welcome to the PTCH Podcast. Jason: Remember, there’s no I in PTCH. All right, we are back. Welcome to the PTCH Podcast. I’m Dr. Jason Young. Kathy: I’m Dr. Kathy Lynch. And this is our guest today. Andrea Hollib, LAC. We call her Anie, though. So, if you know — if you know her as Andrea, it’s ‘cause you’re not friends with her like we are. Jason: That’s right. If you know,

[1:31] you know. Kathy: Yeah. If you know, you know. Well, welcome. Welcome to the podcast. Andrea: Thank you so much for having me here. Jason: Yeah. Kathy: Yeah. You’re welcome. Well, that was a great episode. Take Jason: Hey, will you get to the point? Yeah. So, no, Andrea — we’ve been working with her for years. How long have you been practicing here in Corvallis? Andrea: 18 and a half years. Jason: 18 and a half years. Okay. I haven’t been working with you for that long. Yeah. But, yeah. So, Kathy and I have

[2:02] been friends with Andrea for — it’s probably like five years maybe that we’ve all known each other. We’ve passed a lot of patients between the three of us and she’s fantastic. So, yeah. And you have Balance Point Acupuncture. Andrea: I do. Jason: Right here in the great city of Corvallis. Andrea: Absolutely. Jason: Okay. Excellent. So tell us a little bit about yourself. Andrea: Well, let’s see. Jason: You didn’t know that was going to be one of the questions? Andrea: I know — that’s good. Oh, wow. Let me talk about me.

[2:32] Andrea: Whoa. Wait. That’s — that’s not on this sheet. Jason: What the heck? Kathy: Who? Me? We’re talking about me now. Andrea: I got interested in acupuncture after my mom had a spontaneous disc rupture in her neck in 2000. Jason: Holy smokes. We just went right to it. Andrea: Yeah, why not? She had surgery on her neck. Six months later, she still had so much spine pain that someone had recommended that she try acupuncture. Like, she hadn’t been able to get off any of her drugs.

[3:03] Jason: Oh, wow. And about six weeks in, she was off 50% of her pain medication. Andrea: Wow. It was pretty astounding. So, I had tried acupuncture in October of that year, which was three months after. And I was so relaxed I had to pull over on the side of Reservoir Road and kind of wake myself up — and it was awe-inspiring, how it seems dangerous. Jason: Like, took you to the — I know, it’s simultaneously giving and taking life.

[3:34] Andrea: Yeah. Jason: Best natural drug there is. Do you have time after this podcast? Andrea: It’s pretty lovely. Yeah, let’s do this. No. Jason: Oh jeez. Well, that’s quite an origin story with acupuncture. So then after that you decided, “I’m going to become an acupuncturist.” Andrea: I — so you can get high all the time. First appointments always tend to be the best, you know, but

[4:04] it’s good. It’s — it’s yummy. I describe it as yummy. Kathy: It is yummy. There’s a yumminess to it that is relaxing and soothing and calming and it feels as though it puts all your bits and pieces together and then settles in. And then as people continue with treatments, they start being able to tap into that more often and more frequently. Jason: Tell us about your training, like how long it took, what it entailed, what do they teach you in these acupuncture classes

[4:35] and leading up to that, like how did you get from the side of the road to being like, “Yes, give me all the Chinese medicine.” Andrea: So, yeah, it was — I had done a series of treatments. I was actually going for acupuncture to help regulate my cycle, in all honesty. And I had been on birth control pills since I was 16 because it was very irregular. Kathy: Common story. Andrea: And my acupuncturist that I was seeing in — she said, “Okay, so,” in December she said,

[5:05] “You’re going to have a cycle in January. You’ve been off your pills for a month now.” And I didn’t believe it. I was really skeptical. And the beginning of January, I had a cycle and I hadn’t had one in years. Jason: She called her shot. Andrea: It was — she’s like, “This is what’s going to happen.” Kathy: Mm-hmm. So, honestly, two weeks later, I was taking a shower, you know, just washing my hair and I had this image of an outbuilding on a hill with French doors and a sheer screen and it was my practice and I walked

[5:35] out and I called my mom and I said, “I think I just had a vision of my space.” Jason: Wow. Andrea: And I called the school up in Portland, the Oregon College of Oriental Medicine — Jason: OCOM. Andrea: OCOM — and had an application and I had an acceptance letter after I did an interview in February. Jason: Now I’ve had some sessions with you — like, I haven’t had the vision-in-the-shower treatment. Is that a standard thing? Did you get that? I didn’t get that. Kathy: No, I haven’t gotten it yet. Jason: Must not have paid enough.

[6:05] Jason: That was a first. Kathy: Well, I think I need to go more often. Yeah. So — just so that — I think it’s a pretty clear manifestation that it’s like, yes, this is what I’m supposed to be doing. Jason: Yeah. One of the things that I find with patients that I treat — if there’s a lot of stuff going on in their life, whether it is physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, their life is feeling crazy — they’ll find with treatments that what it is they’re really wanting to cultivate in their

[6:35] life, that it starts coming more into fruition, more clear, having better clarity and being better able to put it into practice in their life. Kathy: And I was so glad that you said some of those things that you said, because those are some of the experiences that I’ve had that I’m really excited to talk with you about. So, now tell us about acupuncture — can I start with a story? Jason: Young chiropractor, right? I’ve

[7:05] been practicing for maybe like a year or two, and this guy comes through my door. Interesting looking guy. And he’s like, “Hey, can I talk to the doctor?” I’m like, “That’s me.” He said, “Well, I’m an acupuncturist.” I said, “Congratulations.” And he said, “I would like to start referring patients back and forth with you.” And I’m thinking, “Okay, I don’t know anything about acupuncture.” He said, “So what I want to do is I want to offer you a treatment so that you can come in and see what acupuncture is all about, and then maybe we can refer people

[7:35] back and forth.” All right, cool. So we set up a time. I go down to his office and he’s like, “What do you want me to work on?” I was like, “I don’t have any problems. You invited me, so like, what are we doing?” And he’s like, “Anything at all. Like, anything that’s bothering you.” I don’t have any problems. Kathy: Yeah. I didn’t — I didn’t at the time. Like I said, new chiropractor. I didn’t have any problems yet. But I did actually — I thought of one. I had some ankle stiffness from an ankle sprain. I tried rehabbing and everything and it just wasn’t 100%, right? It was like maybe 85%. I was

[8:06] like, well, I got this ankle thing. So he’s like, okay. So, you know, he’s sticking needles everywhere. He puts some in my ear, which I thought was interesting. You know, we get patients come in — all that “everything’s connected” — so I guess that’s what he thought. So he gets through it, I get off the table, and my ankle moves great. Like, it’s not stiff at all. And I was like, “Wow, that’s amazing.” And he goes, “Do you want to know what I did?” I said, “No.” Kathy: Good. Jason: And he was like — he’s like, “But

[8:37] like seriously, I’ll explain it to you.” I was like, “Oh no. I actually don’t care what you did.” And he said, “What? Wait, what?” I said, “Yeah, I don’t care what you did. I wouldn’t know how to explain it to somebody if you explained it to me. So no, you don’t need to tell me.” And it was so frustrating to him, because he wanted to explain — this is what happened. I still don’t know what he did. I just know that it worked. And so when I refer people to acupuncture, I’m like, listen, I don’t know how it works,

[9:07] but I know that it works, so I send them. Kathy: That’s perfect. Jason: Yeah. Today we’re going to ruin all that for you. I’m going to find out how it works. You’re going to reveal everything, right? Kathy: All the secrets, all the magic behind the needles. Yeah. Jason: All right. So let’s have it. Like, what happened to my ankle? What is acupuncture even doing for people? Kathy: Yes. So one of the ways of looking at acupuncture is — whenever there’s an injury in the body, it’s considered a stagnation. If you got bumped on your arm and it’s bruised, right? That’s considered a

[9:37] stagnation. But there are things that happen in our body that you can’t see externally. What acupuncture does is it activates the meridians that go through the area of your body that’s having a problem. So your ankle — Jason: Question. Kathy: Yes. Jason: What’s a meridian? Kathy: A meridian is like a highway in your body. Jason: Okay. Kathy: It’s the system of — oh gosh. It’s like a web, right? It’s a web of how body fluid, how blood, how

[10:07] lymph moves in your body. That’s an example of it. Jason: This reminds me of Naruto. I’ve seen this on Naruto. It’s anime. Kathy: Yeah, they show the chakra system or whatever. I can’t remember what it is. It’s been a long time since I’ve watched anime. So — in Western medicine, you have the vessels. Yes. Right. That’s where all the body fluid runs. Jason: Okay. Yeah. Kathy: In Chinese medicine, you have meridians. It’s similar to the vessels.

[10:39] You can look at it like a highway. So you have I-5 and you have 101. They’re both going north and south. You can have a crash on I-5 — you have to either clear out that crash, or people are going to go around it. Jason: Gotcha. Kathy: That’s similar to how acupuncture works in the body. We can address things directly, which is where you’re putting needles right into the area, or you can do acupuncture at distal points, which is a lot of what I do. Jason: That’s why he was putting stuff in my ear. Kathy: Yes. That’s one of the reasons he

[11:09] was putting points in your ear. Jason: Gotcha. Kathy: You are strengthening an area. You are moving whatever is stuck. Jason: So is it energy, or is it fluid, or like — what is getting stuck? Kathy: So more from a Western perspective, it is utilizing nerve bundles — areas of the skin that have more dense nerve bundles.

[11:39] Using a point — a point is creating a conversation with the brain. The brain is releasing neurotransmitters that have a conversation with the rest of the body. Jason: Okay. Kathy: So a big part of that is helping with the parasympathetic, which is the rest and digest. So digestion, calming, relaxing, sleep, reducing cortisol, helping with inflammation, lowering blood pressure, helping circulation, reducing inflammation.

[12:10] Kathy: That makes sense. Jason: Yeah. And you know, this kind of hit me — that we were asking her to try to explain what she does and we’re like western medically trained people. So we want, like, tell me what nerve and what blood vessel and neurotransmitter you’re doing. And she’s like, that’s not how it works, people. Kathy: It’s it’s Chinese medicine. And we were like, put it in our terms, right? And there there are practitioners that work from the western perspective and explain

[12:41] things all in the nerves, all in Jason: the medical acupuncture. Kathy: Yeah. Jason: I was not trained in medical acupuncture. I was trained in traditional Chinese medicine. Kathy: Okay. Jason: But it’s still utilizing similar aspects of how the body works. Kathy: Yeah. Well, but what you said — I mean, I’ve always just kind of told people, because of my chosen ignorance of how it works, right? My

[13:12] oversimplification, that it’s just like, oh, it’s something that’s energetic and they’re like, Chinese medicine, but like what if I’m Black? And it’s like, yes, Jason: Black people’s bodies work the same as the Chinese. We’ve discovered, yes, just recently. But what you’re saying actually really makes sense from the standpoint of — it’s not like the needles are just going after energy. It’s affecting nerves. It’s affecting neurotransmitters and all those kind of

[13:42] things. So it’s like, oh, ding ding ding. So I got to abandon my kind of my image of it where it’s just like, yes, we’re just moving around some energy — but it’s like our body reacts to all kinds of things. Um, but where do the needles come into play, though? Like, why do you need a needle in order to get at that? Jason: Well, there are some people that actually don’t use needles. Kathy: What, are they crazy? Jason: Let’s see. So, persons that cultivate a really strong

[14:13] life force — okay, you can call it chi — Kathy: okay, right — Jason: they do acupuncture utilizing what are called chi needles. Kathy: Okay. So it’s an intention. And it’s a really strong intention, which also is a part of the acupuncture that I do. Intention plays a big part in your body and how your body responds. So you know, if you go to a doctor, Kathy, for your shoulder and Jason: this person is talking who-knows-what to like,

[14:43] who knows what — I’m not feeling anything here, right? Kathy: Yeah. They might have the ability to help you, but you’re not going to really feel it. You’re not going to feel supported and contained and heard as well. Jason: The buy-in isn’t going to be — Kathy: yeah, the buy-in isn’t there. Jason: No. No. Kathy: Also on an energetic level. And so in Chinese medicine, the body has an innate ability to heal itself. And I’m not fixing anyone. I am putting

[15:14] points in certain areas to elicit changes for your own body to create the changes that it needs to help heal. And this can be — you know, you commented your son has an ACL tear — so helping reduce inflammation even with really horrible injuries. Jason: We should have had her on that episode. We’re going to have to bring him in now. Yes. Kathy: Migraines. It’s great for pre-surgery, getting people ready for surgery — it’s going to help them heal. Post-surgery, helping reduce that

[15:44] inflammation. Jason: Yeah. Kathy: I work a lot with people that have headaches and migraines. It’s really debilitating, and that’s one of the things that when people come in — what is this doing in your life that is keeping you from enjoying your life? Jason: And I think she made a really good point between — I caught it. This is what I just took from it — is that western medicine, the doctors and the healthcare providers, are fixing it. Kathy: Yes. Jason: Right. Yeah. And the way she comes at it is, as

[16:15] Chinese medicine, your body can heal itself — I’m just going to point the direction to help it. Kathy: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Jason: I just want to point out that chiropractic is also on the fix-yourself spectrum. Yeah. And physical therapy. Kathy: But I mean, it’s a really good point. And I think that if all of us are being honest with ourselves, that’s what we’re doing — we’re trying to remove obstacles for the body Jason: to heal itself and to get out of the way. So even if you’re a surgeon,

[16:46] right? You’re going in there and you’re removing something. Kathy: Sure. Jason: And then you’re sewing something up and you’re just counting on the body. Kathy: That’s true. Jason: Yeah. To do the rest. Right. I’m just going to put you in a situation where these two things are close together for long enough that the body just figures out how to heal it, right? Kathy: Yeah. Jason: And it’s a really interesting thing. And I think that sometimes, from a professional standpoint, we can get kind of prideful and think, I’m reaching into this person’s life and I’m changing things.

[17:17] And patients certainly come looking for that. Fix me. Kathy: Yeah. Yeah. Jason: Yeah. Me too. It’s Kathy: yes, it’s like you want to back up and say, “I’m not fixing you.” You know, I know where to put points and how to elicit changes, but it’s really your own body doing this. And some bodies are more fickle than others. Jason: It’s better that way. It makes it their fault. Kathy: That’s right. Jason: I don’t know what’s wrong with you. Yeah. You still got to pay me. Kathy: You still got to pay me. Jason: Or if you’re feeling better — yeah, this is what I did. This is how — Kathy: yeah, it was totally me. Absolutely. Right. Well, and what I do sometimes is

[17:48] like, “Oh, you feel better?” Like, well, remember I referred you to Anie. So — that’s right. So — a lot of ways I did that. Yeah. Sure. You drove yourself. Anie: Yeah. But — you drove yourself. But — but one of the ways that I see how acupuncture works so well with western medicine and then also with physical therapy and chiropractic is you guys have referred patients to me and vice versa. When there’s — it’s like when there’s an issue that’s not quite being addressed

[18:18] well enough, like there’s a little stuck spot — and having the acupuncture, because it works on multiple levels. It works on the physical level. It works on the emotional level. It works on the spiritual level. It works on the energetic level. We have all these different layers that — you know, someone’s in a car accident. It’s not just that they got bumped or they hit the dashboard or — all those horrible things that can happen. It really becomes a spirit thing, and our spirit can hold on to what’s going on and make

[18:51] healing really difficult, you know, unless you’re able to relax a little bit. Jason: I feel like you’re almost asking me to tell my other story. Anie: Preach. Preach. But it’s — Jason: but totally — I had an experience, oh jeez, this is like five years ago now maybe. Anie: Yeah. Where we were driving home one night and — long story short — we were the first on the scene for a fatality. Somebody hit somebody who was crossing the road. It

[19:22] was dark. I was the first person to show up. The young woman who hit this person was sitting in the car and she’s freaked out. And I’m like, “Is that a — is that a person?” And she said, “I think so.” Like, “Okay, you stay here. I’m going to go check it out.” And so I’m walking there, and I remember thinking as I’m walking towards this person — they’re not moving and they clearly look like they’re dead. And I remember thinking,

[19:52] I hope they’re dead, because I don’t know what to do. I don’t know if I can save them if they’re not. Anie: Right. Jason: And, got there. Yeah. Very much dead. And so then emergency services showed up and everything like that. It was a crazy night. That had a huge impact on me though. Like, I’m a healthcare provider. I’m not supposed to think, I hope this person’s dead, because of my inadequacy and weakness and lack of preparation, right? And so going into work the next day

[20:25] where it’s like, “Yeah, now I’m supposed to be helping people.” I couldn’t — I was just — I was wrecked. Like I would look at patients and I would see them laying there, and I couldn’t sleep because every time I closed my eyes — it was ruining me. And so I remember like I saw you at a meeting, and I was like, I need help. You fixed it in an hour. Like, an hour later, it’s like I was just — my body could

[20:55] process it, my brain could process it, and I was able to kind of forgive myself for, you know, having a very human response. And yeah — I couldn’t even talk about it before. That’s how bad it was. It was such a dramatic effect, going from something that was completely debilitating and 100% between my ears to — I process it and I was able to move on. I sent that same person to you and

[21:25] the same thing. And now I send people who have had traumas to you, and people are like, “Wow, that’s crazy.” Anie: So yeah, that’s what you’re describing. I feel that. I feel that. Jason: Yeah. And I think this might be a good time for us to take a pause. Kathy: Oh, a word from our sponsor. Jason: That’s a great idea. Yeah. Okay. All right. I’ve got ADHD, which means that my brain is incredible at ideas and it’s terrible at staying in one lane. So for most of my life, focus is something that I’ve had to fight for. And then I found Brain FM. No

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[22:59] Kathy: So, could we do some myth busting? Anie: Always. We love to myth bust. Kathy: Yes. Can we start with a weird one? Anie: Sure. Yes. A weird one. Jason: Sometimes like I’m like, “Hey, you should go see Anie. She does acupuncture.” And people are like, “I can’t do acupuncture. I’m a Christian.” Like, what? It’s like I’m not asking them to join some other church or something like that. But do you ever run into that, where people are like, “This is like some weird ideology or something like that?” Anie: In my 18 years, I have a couple of times.

[23:31] Okay. Like maybe twice. Okay. For people’s own religious beliefs and where they are in their path — there’s an idea of, you know, this is — there’s a big spiritual component behind acupuncture, and it could open doorways and pathways to entities or energies that you don’t really want to have. And you have heard this. Jason: Okay. Anie: I have heard this. I’ve actually gone to look it up, because when I first heard

[24:02] it — this is probably in the last five or six years. Jason: This is the first time I actually ever heard about that. Anie: Okay. Not the case. Jason: Not — Anie: Yeah. Jason: Oh, it doesn’t do that? Anie: No, I’m not — I’m not doing any weird ritual stuff. You know, everything has its own place and purpose, and that’s not how I do it. So everybody is very safe and sound, and you know I’m there to take care of you and make sure that you’re all good. And Jason: if I paid you extra, could you do it?

[24:33]

Kathy: I could use an exorcism.

Jason: There’s actually a treatment called — oh gosh, hold on.

Kathy: Oh.

Jason: It’ll come back to you.

Kathy: It will. It’s basically like a possession. It’s called a possession treatment.

Jason: Oh, really? Okay. But what you’re doing is 100% certified demon free.

Kathy: It’s all demon free. Yep. All right. We might have some angels that come in.

Jason: There we go. Yes. What about — okay, so that’s maybe

[25:04] not the biggest objection that people have, right? Most of them aren’t like, “I’m going to get possessed.” The biggest objection is it’s going to hurt.

Kathy: Yes.

Jason: Right. I don’t want to get poked by a needle. I don’t like needles. It’s going to hurt.

Kathy: Yep. Absolutely.

Jason: You’ve heard that one.

Kathy: I have. Yes. When I first had acupuncture, I was like, “I don’t like needles.”

Jason: I worked in a dialysis unit and they’re using huge 12 and 14 gauge.

Kathy: Oh my god. Like, you know —

Jason: Nothing like that.

Kathy: The nurses that I worked with — when I applied for grad school and got

[25:34] accepted, they laughed because they looked at me and said, “Annie, how in the world are you going to be an acupuncturist? You don’t even like needles.” You know, they knew that.

Jason: But it’s really different. It’s not like you’re getting a vaccine, so you’re getting jabbed in the arm. And it’s not like you’re giving blood so that you’re getting jabbed in the other arm.

Kathy: Yeah.

Jason: It’s really a gentle form of medicine. And one of my goals is how can I insert needles as smoothly and

[26:04] easily as possible. That’s one of my goals.

Jason: Yeah, I try. And then there are some points that are a little bit more tender than others. You know what I call them?

Kathy: What do you call those?

Jason: I call them spicy. There’s spicy points.

Kathy: Spicy points.

Jason: Yep. There are some spicy points. And I tend to let people know. There are some people that

Kathy: don’t have a lot of sensation in their body.

Jason: There are some people that at first they don’t have a lot of sensation, and then after a number of weeks and a number of treatments, they actually start feeling more,

Kathy: which is not a bad thing. You want to be

[26:35] able to feel your body.

Jason: Yeah. And I tend to let people know if points are a little more spicy than others.

Kathy: Yeah. I mean, most of the time when I’ve seen you, you don’t feel the needles, but that doesn’t mean nothing’s happening because your brain — again, this is my western side explaining it — your brain still perceives those needles in your body. And so it’s not that just because you can’t feel it doesn’t mean nothing’s happening.

Jason: Yeah. And most of the time people will feel a little something. There might be a little ache. There might feel like there’s pressure. And I

[27:05] tend to adjust the needle so that there’s something.

Kathy: Yeah. I don’t want people hanging from the rafters, though. You know, people that really like that are called chi junkies.

Jason: Chi junk—

Kathy: Chi junkies. They come in and they’re like, “Can I wiggle with these needles in?” Because they like the sensation of what the acupuncture points can feel like.

Jason: I know.

Kathy: Those — yeah.

Jason: It takes all kinds.

Kathy: I guess so.

Jason: It takes all kinds.

Kathy: I guess so. But I also have different size needles. So people that

[27:36] are more sensitive, I can use a different needle that is a bit smoother. Not saying that you’re going to get one kind and that’s it — it’s really just what the situation calls for. Yeah.

Jason: Gotcha. Wow. So what about other concerns people have with the needles, like what if you go too deep? I had a patient who was concerned about getting a needle stuck

[28:06] in the chest. “What if she punctures my lung?”

Kathy: Certainly.

Jason: I mean, it is one of —

Kathy: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s on my — you know, you have to sign it.

Jason: But —

Kathy: Yeah, I think — don’t quote me on this perfectly — but there’s been maybe one or two acupuncturists in 30 years that have had this happen, because of how we’re trained.

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy: You don’t go anywhere in the chest where you’re going,

Jason: you know, perpendicular. And you’re not going

[28:36] anywhere in the chest perpendicular and pushing.

Kathy: No. Yeah.

Jason: Because you have your lungs. There’s a lot of tissue there. And it’s like —

Kathy: Are you saying you get training?

Jason: I do.

Kathy: In how to keep people safe?

Jason: I do. Yes. Absolutely.

Kathy: So if there’s something horrible that could happen and people could imagine it, there’s a way that you would want to avoid doing the horrible thing, or do it in a safe way — you somehow know about this.

Jason: Absolutely. Yes.

Kathy: I know. Amazing.

Jason: That reminds me of a recent news story.

[29:07] I know you don’t follow sports balls, but a very prominent football player this year — played for Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh Steelers. I have to own up. My profession did it.

Kathy: Uh-huh.

Jason: They were dry needling.

Kathy: Oh, yeah.

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy: His lung.

Jason: I know this.

Kathy: Yep.

Jason: TJ Watt.

Kathy: That’s right.

Jason: And he was out — he missed like three games at least.

Kathy: Holy smokes.

Jason: So it was a PT. Did some dry needling, was

[29:37] doing exactly what you said. Was going perpendicular into — probably working on upper traps — like straight up

Kathy: and then straight down,

Jason: and just went in too high. Yeah.

Kathy: And punctured the lung. And I mean, the body will heal itself, so he eventually was fine. But —

Jason: it’s a really small — such a small —

Kathy: Yeah. Just deflates the lung.

Jason: Yeah. The lung’s already full of holes. It’s full of holes.

Kathy: Yeah. And that often is a question that comes up about acupuncture and dry needling.

Jason: Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah.

[30:07] Kathy: Dry needling in essence is acupuncture. It’s inserting a needle in a certain area that is a solid filament. Jason: Okay. Fine. Kathy: There is a difference between dry needling in what activity you are trying to elicit from that muscle. So muscle is really tight. You’re going into a certain area and trying to get a twitch. Okay. That helps. That’s what releases the — that’s what releases — Jason: Settle down. Getting excited anyway. Kathy: That’s the twitch. She’s demonstrating joints, right?

[30:37] Kathy: That’s what helps release those muscles that are really tight. Jason: Yeah. Kathy: Doing acupuncture, I can do the same thing without needing to use needles that are as long or as thick because one of the things with dry needling, it can be uncomfortable. I’m not dismissing the benefits of dry needling, it can be amazing. Jason: It can be painful — Kathy: and it can be very, very painful. Yeah. And so there’s Jason: different ideas and trainings on both of them, Kathy: but in essence, it is acupuncture.

[31:07] Acupuncturists do know how to go into those muscles and help create that twitch to help relax Jason: irritations, knots, muscle spasms, all those — Kathy: such an interesting thing. So years ago, I was on the state licensing board and when I was just coming on to it, the dry needling question was a really hot one. And so we had public comment and acupuncturists showed up all the time. Really interesting philosophical questions about dry needling versus

[31:38] acupuncture. And so we would ask questions. So, okay, is it the same? And the acupuncturists are like, well, yes, it’s the same. Okay, so what is acupuncture? Well, and then launching all the stuff that you were saying about meridians and everything. It’s like, okay, so anytime a needle goes in somewhere, that’s acupuncture. So if I just go and stick a needle in my arm, is that acupuncture? Well, no, because it’s got to be skillful. It’s like, okay, so what if we’re not using meridians? What if we’re just hitting muscles? And they’re like, it’s different, but it’s

[32:08] different. So Jason: yeah, Kathy: we couldn’t understand the difference. And so we went on and we were just like, okay, look, this is in the scope of practice for chiropractors. Actually, we did it wrong. What we did was we said this is now in the scope of practice for chiropractors, which is the incorrect way to do it because that’s opening up our practice act and trying to change it. Only the legislature can do that. You can’t do that on a rulemaking board. And so then there was like an appeal in court and dry needling got taken away. We had it for

[32:38] like seconds and then it was gone. Jason: But the thing that was interesting was that after that the acupuncturists were like, “We got to roll on this. We got to win. We got to win and we got to keep going.” So they tried to pass a law in the state that said that all solid needle penetration of the skin is acupuncture and you have to be an acupuncturist to do it. Which was going great until the — the acupuncture in Oregon, at least at

[33:10] that time, the licensing happened through the medical board. Kathy: It still does. Jason: It still does. Okay. Kathy: We don’t have our own — Jason: Yeah, the medical profession was not too thrilled about that definition because sutures. Kathy: Yeah. Jason: Yeah, because those suture needles aren’t hollow. So it’s like, so now we all got to become acupuncturists. We’re all doing Chinese medicine now. Kathy: Right. Jason: And so that went away. But yeah, alas, chiropractors in the state of Oregon cannot do dry needling. Kathy: So now after the TJ Watt thing, I don’t want to.

[33:41] Jason: I like my low-risk profession. Kathy: You might get comments on this. I mean, there’s a lot of — there’s a lot of heat that comes up between yeah, Jason: physical therapists and acupuncturists doing dry needling and acupuncture. And Kathy: you know, there’s plenty of people in this world that need help. Jason: Yeah, totally. Kathy: Whatever is going to help and support someone in their healing and they’re getting better and they’re getting back to doing what they really want to do, that’s great. You know, Jason asked if I do dry needling. I don’t do dry needling per se. I do acupuncture, but I can get that twitch. I

[34:11] don’t — Jason: don’t hit your computer again. Okay. People up in arms over — I can do things a different way but yeah, it’s — why not just support each other? Kathy: Support each other. Jason: You know. Kathy: And the Oregon Board of Physical Therapy actually opened our practice act last year to get dry needling Jason: into our scope and actually it passed. Kathy: Oh wow. Yeah. But we’re not — Jason: that’s a bold move. Kathy: We’re not able to — we’re not able to do it until next year. Jason: Ah, so Kathy: yeah, so you open your practice act and

[34:41] it’s just as likely people can take things away as — we got lucky. So Jason: yeah, and to your point, I think it’s a really great one that there’s definitely enough problems to go around. I always think the turf war is a really interesting Kathy: one, especially when it comes from medical doctors who are so inundated. Like, try and get an appointment with a family practice doctor. Jason: Yeah. Or a specialist. It’s like, it’s crazy. And so to be like, well, these people who don’t do what I do — Kathy: Yeah.

[35:11] Jason: like, they should be — Kathy: part of that is Jason: the argument is how we’ve been trained. So we have virtually a master’s degree and the idea that someone can go do a 10 or 15 or 30 hour course and be able to essentially do what we’re doing, right? Kathy: That’s where the rub comes from. But at the same time, if you want to be a physician’s assistant, Jason: oh yeah, Kathy: which is Jason: virtually the same amount timewise of training, it’s different training, but

[35:41] it’s virtually the same amount. That’s the thing that’s never made sense to me. It’s like, oh, they’re not spending enough time. Kathy: Is it the time, Jason: right? The kind of training, the type of training. And that’s what it is. It’s a different type of training. Can you train to do that in that amount of time safely? Absolutely. Right, because so many people do it. Acupuncture is safe. Jason: Yeah. Kathy: Yeah. Yeah. Jason: Right. It’s not leaving a trail of bodies anywhere. It’s not — Kathy: bodies — Kung Fu Panda. Right. 67%

[36:12] “Strokes are caused by now acupuncture and chiropractic.” I just made that up. Jason: That’s a great statistic. You know where I heard that? I heard that right here. And when we put this on the internet, that makes it true. That makes it true. Leave everything there. I love — oh jeez. What was it? Man, I think it was a Jet Li movie. Kathy: Yeah. Where — Jason: Enter the Dragon. Kathy: No. So that’s Bruce Lee. Jet Li was

[36:44] later. I think he played like a bodyguard or something. I can’t remember the exact — but he had this little wrist thing with some acupuncture needles and he’d like fight people and he’s like, “Now you’re freaking paralyzed and now I can do whatever I want.” Yes. And so — was it used as like — I mean, as a martial art? Maybe this is out of your scope of practice. No, that’s okay. What are the origins? Yeah. Like, were people acupuncturing people on the field? It’s like, “Now I can karate you less hard

[37:14] because I acupunctured you super hard.” Andrea: To the best of my knowledge, no. Jason: That’s so disappointing. Andrea: I know. The first day in grad school, in our class, everybody asked the head instructor — Joe asked him, “So, if you get stuck with an acupuncture needle, will it paralyze you?” He’s like, “Okay, this has been asked” — which is code for “Can I roofie somebody with one of these needles?” Jason: That’s all I’m here for. Andrea: It’s like, “All right, you’re expelled.” Jason: Yeah. Yeah. I’m an

[37:44] acupuncturist. I now have a — a defense license. A defense — a defense license. Jason: Self-defense. Andrea: Self-defense. There you go. Yes. I’m an acupuncturist. I’m skilled in self-defense. No. Jason: Yeah. No, it does. Andrea: Come at me like this. Jason: Okay. Andrea: It tends to be more relaxing. Jason: So if people come in really wild and wired and like bouncing off the walls, maybe they don’t want to fight you. It’ll settle them down. Exactly. Exactly. Like, you know what? I love you.

[38:14] Jason: Yeah. I love you. Why would I want to punch you in the face? Did I already punch you in the face? I’m so sorry. After I did acupuncture, sometimes I’ve wandered around stores for like two hours just — just kind of in this daze, like, just hi, just loving people. Andrea: I don’t know if that’s really an ad for — Jason: We can take that one out. I just wander aimlessly. Are you safe to drive? Andrea: Yeah, that’s why I have a couple chairs in my — Jason: You do — you do have people chill out for a little bit afterwards. Andrea: Yeah,

[38:45] yeah. Your clinic’s within walking distance for me. And so sometimes you’re like, “Maybe you shouldn’t be crossing the street.” You have to cross the street to get to your office. Should I call Mandy? Yeah. Well, but let’s talk about referrals. So I want to talk about one patient in particular because the three of us have all treated her. Andrea: Oh, yes. And — Jason: she loves this podcast. Andrea: She loves this podcast. Shout out. And Jason: you know who you are. You know who you are. Oh, and real quick, I got to shout

[39:15] out another patient who absolutely loves the show. She’s not getting acupuncture yet, but she’s had a really rough go health-wise. She loves the show. Her husband told me that she’s like — “Oh, yeah, she’s really into the show and everything like that.” So, you know who you are. We just want to shout you out. Get better soon. Andrea: Get some acupuncture. It’ll fix you right up. Anyway, Jason: sorry. Andrea: Okay. Anyhoo, Jason: okay. But this other patient, this other super fan, Andrea: this other super fan that we’ve both been treating and haven’t been that

[39:45] successful at treating. Andrea: No, Jason: she still has — Andrea: she’s like most of our patients. Jason: Mhm. So she just had this crazy knot in her upper trap causing neck pain, headaches, just kind of making her miserable. The western medicine stuff wasn’t working. And I was like, “You know, I got the perfect person for you” — because when you walk into Andrea’s office, you just feel better. Andrea: Yeah, she’s different. Jason: You were — I think that

[40:16] some people were just born healers, and I know that you were born to be a healer. Just being around you makes me feel better. And so I said that to her. I said, “You’re just going to feel better walking in there.” So she finally went and got an appointment with you. And I saw her — I saw her yesterday and she’s like, Andrea: “You were so right.” Jason: Yeah. I love that feeling. Andrea: And I think people can have the experience when they come in to see you where they’re like, “Do we really need the needles?” Like, “Do we still — do we still have to do this?” Right.

[40:47] I’ve had people say, “Can I just come sit in the —” Jason: Yeah. And you really are — you really are that good. And so it’s really nice. Andrea: And I like that you gave me control of the button. Jason: Yes. Yeah. The — button. Andrea: Yeah. The button. She’s got this little like call button. So if you’re laying there — I don’t know what it’s even for. If I get too chill or something like that and I want to tell you about it, right? She comes running in. Andrea: It’s really for when I come and check on people. I’m like, “How are you doing?” They’re like, “Oh my gosh, I’m so hot. I’m sweating through the towel.” Or they’re freezing.

[41:17] And this is why you have that button. Like, let me know. Yeah. You don’t need to be uncomfortable. Jason: So back to the patient. It’s okay, man. That’s all right. I saw her yesterday and she’s like, “Go ahead. Feel my traps. You’re not going to feel anything.” And by gosh, that muscle knot was not as prevalent. I could get in there and poke — and obviously I’m trained to find pain, right? But boy, she had at least a 75–80% reduction.

[41:47] Kathy: I’m excited to see her now. Annie: And can you believe that I virtually not put any needles in her neck? Kathy: Yes. Yeah, I believe it. Yeah. Can we — I’m gonna — we can’t say bad words, but she told me the story. Annie: Do you want to tell her? You want me to tell? Kathy: No, go ahead. Yes. Absolutely. Annie: So, this patient — I hope she’s watching — is awesome and she’s quite the character. She told me she sat down in Annie’s recliner and Annie’s putting the needles everywhere, and she comes in and she’s like, “Now, this one is the game changer. This is

[42:18] the one that’s going to unlock everything. It’s the one that’s between your eyes.” Kathy: Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah. Right. Had that one. And so she puts it in there and — — she says she looks at Annie and goes, “You’re so full of beep.” Annie: True, true story. Kathy: What’d you say to her? Annie: I think I’m like, “Hey, I love it when people call me on stuff, but you know, we’re just going to have to see what it does. I’ll see you in a short bit.” Kathy: And you came back in, came back in, and she — oh yeah, yeah — melted in.

[42:50] Jason: So tell me about that one. Does that one do — so this point is called Yintang. Annie: It’s it’s — Jason: That’s what I was gonna guess. Annie: I know. Jason: Yeah. Annie: You knew it. Jason: Yintang. Annie: It’s similar to like the idea of the third eye. It is really relaxing. It’s settling. It settles the mind.

[43:20] It helps align, helps consolidate, helps kind of put you back together if you’re feeling really out of it and scattered. Jason: Okay.

Jason: So I should always be walking around with one. Oh, speaking of which, tell me about the seeds. Kathy: Yeah, the ear seeds. What’s the deal with that? What’s up with that? Annie: So, treating the ears is like treating the body. It’s a smaller microcosm, right? Jason: Oh, the homunculus. Annie: Yes. Jason: You know that word. Annie: Yes. The homunculus actually appears in the brain, too. You have like a little map — homunculus means like “little man,” right? Yep. Annie: And so yeah, they have that in ears, feet —Kathy: because reflexology uses it. Then

[43:51] there’s actually one in your brain. You create an image of the little man or the little — Annie: little fella. Jason: You can treat the entire body Annie: through treating the ears. Jason: Yeah. Okay. Annie: Because of the association with where it is in the brain Kathy: and then also how it has a connection with the body. Jason: Okay. Kathy: So, back to my ankle. Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Kathy: There you go. All right. So, he was like putting them in the ankle points in my ear. Annie: He could have been doing that. He also could have been putting in those really yummy Shenmen points. They’re called Shenmen points. Shenmen.

[44:21] Shenmen points help — it’s really calming. Jason: Okay. Annie: Maybe you’ve been bouncing off the walls. Kathy: So then the ear seed, you just tape that little — what is it? Like a little BB or something like that — that you just tape on there. Annie: It can be a little gold bead with a little tape on the back. Jason: Okay. Annie: Or even a little mustard seed that I use. So I’ll put them on certain areas and I’ll let people leave and they can leave them in for four or five days. Kathy: Yeah. See if you have like a mustard seed here. Annie: Amazing — the size of a mustard

[44:51] seed. Yes, that’s right. You can move mountains — or migraines. Kathy: Well, and a lot of people like — they get that piercing, right? And is that kind of an acupuncture thing? Annie: It’s — yes, Kathy: because if they do it at Claire’s, it’s not acupuncture. Let’s be real. Annie: Definitely not. Their intention is trying to get to the point that’s helpful for headaches and migraines. Kathy: It’s like a 50/50. Annie: Yeah. Yeah, from people that I’ve had — Kathy: because they get that one and then there’s like a half-off like lip piercing here

[45:22] and they’re like, “This is for the headaches, too.” It’s like, “Okay.” Right. You’re having trouble holding water in. Annie: No, absolutely. Jason: Okay. So, can you give us like a crazy acupuncture story? Freak us out. Annie: Okay. Yeah. Jason: All right. Yeah. Freak us all the way out. Annie: So, it was probably three years into practice. Jason: Mhm. Annie: I had a gentleman come in to see me. He was my last patient of the day. And he worked at an office in town that had

[45:53] laid off a number of people. And he had — probably oh — 50% of the co-workers that he had worked with for a very long time were let go. Jason: Ouch. Annie: He came in, he had been really depressed. He played an instrument — a lot. I’m trying not to like give too much information. Jason: Sure. He was a musician. Annie: He’s a musician. Yeah. He used to compose and he hadn’t composed and had virtually

[46:23] played for six months, if not longer. Came in for a treatment. I kid you not. After this treatment, I wanted to call his wife and tell her that the man that is coming home is your husband. I mean, it was — just watching him walk out of my office was so different than the person who walked in. Jason: Wow. Annie: Yeah. He walked out to his car and he was kind of looking at the buildings

[46:53] around and kind of looking at the plants and just really being in his body, dialed in. It was amazing. It was amazing. A week later, he came in and he told me that he picked up his instrument and he had actually composed some music that he hadn’t done in months. Jason: Wow. Annie: And months. Jason: Wow. Annie: And that was — Jason: goodbye stagnation. Annie: Yes. Jason: Yeah. Annie: Incredible. Jason: Yeah. Besides pain, it helps with, you know, a lot of mental health. Anxiety, depression.

[47:23] Jason: Wow. That’s — Annie: stress. Yeah. Jason: Like freaked all the way out. Annie: Yeah. Jason: So, that was a huge one. And then you have the people that they’ll walk in with their canes or their walkers and they’ll literally forget them. Annie: Yeah. Jason: They’ll forget to — yeah. I’d love to see that. Annie: So, we’re getting close on time, but what about the science? What does the science say? Like, are there studies about acupuncture? Jason: There’s — in the last 20 years, there’s been like 18,000 different meta-studies. Kathy: Oh, that’s all. Jason: I know. I know. I know.

[47:53] Kathy: Not 19. I know. Jason: Well, that the other day. Kathy: Yeah. They’re full of crap. There’s so many. Don’t worry. When we put this on TikTok, I promise you somebody is gonna say, “Well, there’s no evidence for acupuncture.” And I’m an expert ‘cause I’m on TikTok. Jason: Yeah, we can PubMed. You know, the World Health Organization. Okay. The World Health Organization supports acupuncture because of the studies that have been done. Mhm.

[48:23] And it’s in major clinical guidelines for things like back pain. That’s what I’m paying attention to because that’s what I treat. There’s probably other things. Kathy: Yep. Yep. Jason: Awesome. It’s amazing medicine. Sight-based. Yeah. So, one thing that I would like to share. Yeah. There’s a question about how one of the ways that acupuncture can really help Western medicine. Kathy: Yeah. Yes. Great question. So we should — most medical doctors are like completely

[48:54] inundated with patients. Like, you know, someone tripped, they pull their back, whatnot. I would love to see people starting to look at acupuncture as: let me get into my acupuncturist for a few treatments first before I go to urgent care, or before I go to the emergency room, or before I start panicking. And Jason: it’s usually the opposite. Kathy: Yeah. Right. Yes. People are like, “Nothing else is working.” Well, go see the weird lady.

[49:24] Jason: Yes. Literally. Kathy: Yeah. It’s usually the last resort. But acupuncture is a starting point — having a starting point frees up the healthcare system. Jason: Absolutely. Yes. I think that’s a solid idea. I mean, we feel the same way about what we do, too. Kathy: Yeah. Jason: Yeah. It’s like, do anything you can to stay out of and away from the hospital. Try not to get surgery. Like, try lots of other things. And the thing that’s kind of funny is, of course you mean that within reason, not anything,

[49:54] but do any reasonable, safe, and proven thing that you can to avoid hospitals. I think any doctor listening to this is going to be like, “Yes, thank you.” Right? Because they want to be seeing the right people. Like, we want to be seeing the right people. Kathy: Yeah. Jason: Great point. Kathy: Great point. Okay, let’s take two minutes because I really want to talk about something that’s your favorite thing to do, and that’s you treat animals. I know that we should have spent the whole episode talking about this, but Jason: yeah, we might do a callback.

[50:25] Kathy: Yeah, tell us about how you treat our furry friends. Oh yeah, that’s my heart. That’s my heart stuff. So four years ago I was trained in Arizona to treat animals, and we worked on horses, cats, and dogs. Oh my gosh. So if anybody asks if acupuncture works, you can talk to an acupuncturist who treats animals, or veterinarians who treat animals, and

[50:56] animals don’t have the mental construct of “is this going to work or not.” Right? You get up and you watch them run away and they look like three-year-old puppies, or you have the dogs that are jumping up on the couch when they haven’t been jumping up on the couch. Two years ago I treated a horse who had a bad reaction to a bundle of vaccinations, and after six weeks I saw him for the first time. He wasn’t eating. He was keeping his head down in the stall. Wasn’t able to be ridden.

[51:26] Wasn’t able to do his work that he did. And I came in, I did a few treatments. I did a few needles on him and he started to pick his head up in 10 minutes. Jason: Wow. So did a couple more pins. Animals don’t need very long. The bigger the animal, it doesn’t mean you need a larger needle. We’re actually using smaller and finer needles because their energy is just so sensitive. They’re just aware of their bodies. Like they don’t need all that,

[51:56] right? And within 15 minutes, this horse — I took him around the arena and he was starting to check people’s pockets to see if anybody had any mints in their pockets. Jason: Oh, that’s not what he was looking for. He was looking for more needles. He wanted more needles. He liked this stuff. Kathy: Anybody got any of them needles? Jason: Yeah. Any of those Chinese needles? So his owner really did not know if he was going to

[52:27] make it because of this. And I wish I had taken a video of how he was before and then 15 minutes after. It was just Jason: shocking. Kathy: What a great story. So, if your dog has arthritis Jason: or other Kathy: yes, low back issues, sometimes the big dogs and the little dogs will decide to go crazy jumping off couches. You know, they do too much and they have the area between their back that doesn’t work. Yes. Yes. Very much so. Cats will do that. Horses. One of the things that acupuncture is great with is laminitis. That’s

[52:57] where they have an issue with their hoof — there is virtually nothing that Western medicine can do for laminitis, and acupuncture is amazing for it. And also heaves, which is similar to asthma or emphysema. Jason: Okay. Kathy: Yeah. Okay. So somebody wants to know more about you and what you do. What’s a good way for them to get in touch? I have a website. Jason: What? So they can go — I know. Kathy: Wow. It kind of looks like a 2014 website, but that’s okay. Jason: You’re the fanciest guest there. It’s something

[53:28] there. What’s your website? It is www.needlesheel.com. Jason: Needlesheel. Needlesheel.com. Yeah. Okay. They can also text me — that’s my business number. Jason: Let’s keep your phone number out. No, I’m just kidding. Yeah, but they can find all that info on there. Absolutely. Okay. Cool. Yeah. I think that we should play a game. Kathy: Let’s do it. Yeah, let’s do a game. Okay, so how many points are there, first of all? Uh — oh. 360-something plus extra points. Jason: Yeah. And then like

[53:58] Jason: Is it like, does everybody know all the points? Like, you have instant recall of all of them?

Kathy: Um— no, not really.

Jason: That’s actually what we’re about to test.

Kathy: Here we go.

Jason: Yes. We’re going to play a game called Pinpoint Precision, where we’re going to be quizzing you on your knowledge of points, and all you have to do is tell us: is this a real point

Kathy: or is it a—

Jason: All I have to say is it’s real.

Kathy: I’m going to tell you — you ruined my first one. It was the — was it the Yintang?

[54:28] Jason: The Yintang?

Kathy: Yeah, the Yintang. Yeah, that was number one on my list, and clearly that one is wrong.

Jason: It’s clear.

Kathy: So are you going to mention—

Jason: Are you — are you asking if I know the names of points?

Kathy: No, I’m going to — I’m going to say the name of a point. Sometimes it might be the Chinese name. Sometimes it might be kind of the nickname for it. You just tell me: is this a real point or not?

Jason: Say real or fake.

Kathy: Real or fake. Ready? So you already — you already got a point for your tongue.

Jason: We’re not going to put you up against Raul, who clearly would get 90% on this. He gets like an automatic 90%.

Kathy: He does on all of them.

[54:58] Jason: Yes. He is an expert on literally nothing. Literally nothing. He went to the University of Oregon. So—

Kathy: You’re doing amazing.

Jason: All right. You ready?

Kathy: Yes.

Jason: The ghost point of the chest. Real or fake?

Kathy: Uh, real.

Jason: It is real. Very good.

Kathy: You’re an expert.

Jason: Yes. It’s part of a series of ghost points, is what it says, for treating mental illness

Kathy: in Chinese people. No — Chinese medicine. That’s what it says. Yeah, this works

[55:28] for all people. Yes.

Jason: Doesn’t matter what your—

Kathy: Doesn’t matter what your— yeah. They don’t watch this. I don’t know if they’re allowed to see the PTCH Podcast.

Jason: Um, the — uh — sea of brain juice.

Kathy: The sea of brain juice.

Jason: The sea of brain juice.

Kathy: Is that real or fake? I think there’s a sea of marrow. Um,

Jason: but is there a sea of brain juice?

Kathy: No. No, I will pass. I will do a no on that.

Jason: Good. I’m trying — I tried to do it with a really straight

[55:58] face.

Kathy: Yeah, that was good.

Jason: Now, the challenge is some of these real or fake ones I don’t know how to pronounce. So, let’s — um — let’s go to this one. I think it’s — He Gu.

Kathy: Yeah,

Jason: He Gu. Yeah.

Kathy: That’s a point.

Jason: Where’s that at?

Kathy: Uh, Large Intestine 4.

Jason: Okay.

Kathy: That’s like one of the few that I know the name, because — we learn the numbers system. Then the — then the names are fun.

Jason: Yes. Yes.

Kathy: Uh, what about this one? Uh, frog’s eye

[56:31] point.

Jason: Do you want the number?

Kathy: I don’t have the number.

Jason: Frog’s eye.

Kathy: The frog’s eye.

Jason: I don’t know. Uh, no.

Kathy: You’re going to say fake.

Jason: Is it real?

Kathy: It’s fake. Frog.

Jason: Good. All right. What about this one? The point of universal wisdom. Small Intestine 42. Really? There is no Small—

Kathy: Are you sure?

[57:01] Jason: Yes.

Kathy: It’s the point of universal wisdom, though.

Jason: Small Intestine 42.

Kathy: Mm-hm.

Jason: No. There’s— good. She is so good. She is good.

Kathy: Wow. How many Small Intestine points are there?

Jason: Oh my gosh.

Kathy: Four.

Jason: 21.

Kathy: Oh gosh. I don’t know. I’m going to look bad now. You knew that 42 wasn’t there.

Jason: 42 is not there. Yeah.

Kathy: We’re going to give you this one, ‘cause this one sounds great. Ready? Uh, the heavenly palace of the heart.

[57:32] Jason: That sounds right.

Kathy: Sounds right. Which one is it?

Jason: Um, is it — uh — is it?

Kathy: There’s a reason you can’t think of it. It’s fake.

Jason: Oh, it is.

Kathy: It sounds awesome. You should make one.

Jason: I want to believe that one.

Kathy: All right. No, you did so good. I’m impressed. This was hard — it was hard to do this with a straight face, but you weren’t fooled at all. So — no. Awesome.

Jason: That last one was a good one, though.

Kathy: Thank you. I know. I just — I really — I had to go to the heart — the heavenly

[58:03] palace of my heart to really sell that one. So, um — well, take-home. There are—

Jason: I’ve been waiting for this part. Chi junkies out there. That’s my takeaway.

Kathy: I don’t know if I want to know those people.

Jason: How do you spot them?

Kathy: Chi junkie. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason: They’re like, “You got any more of them acupuncture needles?”

Kathy: No.

Jason: They’re the ones that come and go, “You can just needle me up all over.”

Kathy: They’re like, “Go ahead.”

Jason: They’re like, “Anything helps.”

Kathy: I might be one of those,

Jason: but nothing helps like those needles.

[58:34] Jason: So, no — I think, uh, one for me is — first of all, I need to get in and get some more acupuncture, clearly.

Kathy: Um, also need to send — because I don’t know why I didn’t think about that. We’ve got to put that on the recovery plan. So,

Jason: yeah. Um, and that kind of brings me to my ultimate take-home, which is that things like acupuncture should be more front of mind for people, instead of like, “But we tried everything else and nothing.” So,

Kathy: it’s really great. Uh, this was an excellent episode, as always.

Jason: Yeah, you totally delivered.

[59:05] Kathy: Um, I remember leading up to this, you were kind of — you’re like, “I don’t know.” But no, you are an expert, young lady. You know what you’re doing. So,

Jason: it’s a matter of pulling it out of your mind. You know what you do every day.

Kathy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, just, you know, just tell it to the microphone. The microphone never judges you. It doesn’t take.

Jason: All right. And I think that there’s just one more important thing that we’ve got to get to, and that’s that there’s no “I” in PTCH.

[59:35]