It's ILLEGAL To Die In This Town (And Other Insane Health Laws)

[0:00] Kathy: Oh, Kathy, did you know that there’s a town where it is illegal to die?

Jason: What’s the penalty? Life in prison?

Kathy: I don’t know, but I found out that in Singapore you also can’t chew gum unless your doctor prescribes it.

Jason: Therapeutic Hubba Bubba, yum.

Kathy: I’ve heard of stranger things.

Jason: Well, today we’re looking at the wildest and weirdest health laws around the world. Rules so bizarre that you’ll think that we’re making them up. But we’re not. Let’s get into it. This is

[0:30] the PTCH. What happens when a chiropractor and a physical therapist get together to make a health and wellness podcast?

Jason: But chiropractors and physical therapists don’t like each other.

Kathy: Oh, think again. I’m Dr. Kathy Lynch, physical therapist who likes to help people move and get stronger.

Jason: I’m Dr. Jason Young, an evidence-based chiropractor who uses humor just as much as adjustments to help people get better. Welcome to the PTCH podcast.

Kathy: Remember, there’s no I in PTCH. All right, PTCHes, we’re back.

[1:00] I love saying that. How you doing, Kathy?

Kathy: I’m doing great. Yourself?

Jason: I’m doing pretty good, too. Oh, I guess I’m Dr. Jason Young.

Kathy: Yeah, I’m Dr. Kathy Lynch.

Jason: And together we are the PTCH podcast co-hosts. One of us is a physical therapist, one of us is not.

Kathy: Mm-hm. We don’t know.

Jason: Yeah, it’s a chiropractor, right. But P-T-C-H — PT is for physical therapy, CH is actually for chocolate.

Kathy: Choc— We love chocolate on here.

Jason: Chocolate, right. PTs love chocolate.

[1:30] Kathy: Yes, yes, they do. Yes, they do. So. All right. This is — I think this is going to be a fun episode.

Jason: Going to be fun.

Kathy: When we talked about this, you were like, so it’s kind of like we’re just going to be playing a game the whole time.

Jason: Pretty much. Yeah, when I thought about that, I was like, oh yeah, this is going to be an interesting one to come up with a game for, because it really is kind of like trivia.

Kathy: True or not true.

Jason: Yeah. There are some weird, weird laws out there and rules about health. And so we’re just going to go through some of them.

[2:01] People be wilding out.

Kathy: They do. Yes.

Jason: Some of them are health people.

Kathy: Oh. Now, some of these are kind of new. Some of these are very, very old. All of these are verified by AI. So we know it’s got to be true.

Jason: Yes. High level of authority that we’re working with here. I went and, at least for mine, I went and I did some extra homework just to make sure the AI is not hallucinating some of these, but yeah.

Kathy: Yeah, you have a bibliography even.

Jason: I do. I do. Yes. So if needed,

[2:32] people, we can put those in the show notes.

Kathy: All right, I guess I have some homework. We got to put some references in the show notes, but yes. But trust me, the AI overlords assured me this episode would not disappoint. So yes, we’re in good hands.

Jason: Okay. All right, can we start with one that I thought was kind of funny?

Kathy: Yes.

Jason: In Sellia, Italy, it is illegal to get sick. Can you believe that?

[3:02] Kathy: I’m just going to laugh this whole episode because this just seems absolutely ridiculous.

Jason: Yeah. And I think this one is a little more of a promotional stunt than anything.

Kathy: So, 2015, the mayor of the town — and it’s a rapidly aging town, about 500 people — passed a symbolic ordinance that makes it illegal to get sick. I hopefully the punishment is not death. Is that kind of like if we don’t test,

[3:34] we don’t have more cases?

Jason: That’s right. That was the solution to COVID all along. Quit testing. Right?

Kathy: Yeah. Or around here, I mean, anytime you get sick, you can just say it’s allergies.

Jason: Yeah. And it doesn’t matter what time of year it is, because apparently in the Willamette Valley allergies are a thing year round.

Kathy: Yeah, somebody told me the other day at the gym that we’re like number two in the world,

[4:06] highest allergy population.

Jason: Yeah, it’s crazy. And if you live here and you don’t have allergies, all you got to do is keep living here. Seriously, I’ve never had allergies — in the last 3 years. Holy Moses. I don’t know. Mine started probably about — oh jeez — probably about 11, 12 years ago. I just trimmed some hedges outside of my house and then all of a sudden, boom, full-blown allergies. And it’s a great way though to find out about what kind of plants there are, because when you’re like, “Oh, I’ve got allergies,” somebody will tell you the name of some mythical

[4:38] plant that is suddenly blossoming in 30° weather.

Kathy: Yeah. This town has like the most populous — per population — PhDs. Like there’s a PhD on every corner in this town. So everywhere you look, somebody’s going to give you the genus and the family of that plant that’s giving you the allergies.

Jason: I don’t know if it’s currently, but for several years Corvallis was the highest number of PhDs per capita in the country.

Kathy: That’s the words I was looking for. Insane.

[5:10] Jason: Yeah, and I’ve met these people.

Kathy: So okay, so that law was not enforceable in the legal sense, but it served as a nice public health awareness campaign for an aging population with limited access. Can I give you another weird one though?

Jason: Please.

Kathy: In Switzerland, they have a guinea pig law.

Jason: So the animal welfare law — this doesn’t apply to humans, but — and it’s not just guinea pigs, it’s rabbits

[5:41] or any sort of social animal — it is illegal to just own one.

Kathy: Tell me why.

Jason: Well, because they got to have homies, right? It’s like putting a guinea pig in solitary confinement if you just have one. It’s got to have a buddy.

Kathy: Okay, but what if that one guinea pig is an introvert and is like, I would like to live solo? I don’t know. Like,

Jason: or like a guinea pig on the spectrum or something like that. I don’t want a lot of loud noises from you other

[6:11] guinea pigs.

Kathy: Solitary. Yeah, right.

Jason: No, I guess that’s not a thing. Well, and it’s a little bit dangerous, ‘cause like bunnies — you’re going to make other bunnies.

Kathy: No.

Jason: So, and here’s one more that’s kind of related to that first one. I got to get the name of this place right. Longyearbyen? It looks like that’s how you say it. L-O-N-G-Y-E-A-R-B-Y-E-N. Longyearbyen.

Kathy: L-O-N-G-Y-E-A-R-B-Y-E-N. Longyearbyen.

Jason: L-O-N-G-Y-E-A-R-B-Y-E-N. Longyearbyen. In Norway, they

[6:43] you know, those the in Italy, they banned getting sick. Well, Longyearbyen, not to be outdone, decided to ban death. It is illegal to die, okay? Yeah, what is the penalty as we said in the cold open? Right. What — life in prison, I guess, right? Well, but this one I think is a little more practical than those other two, and it’s because of the part of the world that this is in.

[7:14] So, when people die, you can’t just bury them. You can’t bury their remains. The permafrost prevents them from decomposing, and so the last burial that they had there was in 1950. What? Yeah, 1950. So, do you just have to leave town to die — like, hey everybody, got to get out of town? That’s what it is, and I guess this is an island, so if you are terminally ill, they ship you

[7:45] off to the mainland so that you can die there where they can put you underground or something. I don’t know why they’re not just like cremating people or something, but like in Norway, don’t they just put them on a boat and shoot a flaming arrow at it anyway? Like, what’s the big deal here? Kathy: That’s what I’ve seen on TV. Jason: I watched Vikings, you know? But yeah, and they found bodies in the permafrost that still have influenza

[8:15] virus in them. Kathy: Oh, you’re kidding. Jason: Including the 1918 Spanish flu strain of influenza, the one that caused a big pandemic. Kathy: Yes, still alive and — Jason: Still alive and well. And so that’s part of the rationale for — you are not allowed to die here. Kathy: Jason: If you die here, we’re going to ship you out. Right? Isn’t that nuts? Kathy: That is nuts. Jason: Yeah, well, but still I’m perplexed. Like, why can’t you just come up with more creative solutions for what you do with the

[8:45] bodies? Is it like Norwegian culture not to be cremated? Kathy: Do I look Norwegian? Jason: You look anti-Norwegian. What’s the opposite of Norwegian? Kathy: Well, I mean, my Viking name guaranteed would have been Black Whatever, right? Yeah. Black Ragnarok. Jason: You know, so — right. You’re not the most Norse person. Kathy: Like, I think if I lived in

[9:17] Asgard, I would have been — who was Idris Elba in that? Like Heimdall? Oh. Jason: Right? Yeah, so yeah, you get the one black guy and he is in charge of the subway. Kathy: Yes. Yeah, basically. He’s driving the subway. Absolutely. That would have been me. Yeah, you can just call me Dr. Heimdall. Is that his name? Did I get that right? Okay, thank you, Raul. Yeah, Raul’s a nerd, so I had to check in with him on that. Jason: We’re all nerds. You guys are on the same page when it comes to movies

[9:48] and shows. I’m like usually like, “What are you talking about?” Kathy: Yeah. Yeah, so. But well, and like in New Orlean- — New Orleans, New Orleans, how do you say it? Jason: New Orleans? Kathy: In New Orleans, they don’t bury people underground. Did you know that? Jason: Yes, right? Because they’re below sea level. Yeah. Yeah, so the flooding — it would just wash all the corpses up. So, everybody there is in these like mausoleums and tombs and stuff like that. Like, come on, Norway, get with the times.

[10:19] Kathy: Right? Yeah. Jason: Put them in a tomb. Concrete. Kathy: The people who gave us jambalaya had it figured out — like, why can’t you? Oh, that actually reminds me of another weird one. Did you read the jambalaya one? Jason: I didn’t get to the jambalaya. Kathy: Oh, okay. So, there is — this isn’t a law preventing something, but it is a law that is an exception. In New Orleans, or I guess it’s in Louisiana, there are like public safety laws in terms of how food has to

[10:49] be prepared, what you can and can’t put in it, all that kind of stuff. There is an exception in the law for jambalaya. Jason: And? Kathy: So in general, you can’t prepare food outside over an open fire and stuff like that. Jason: Jambalaya anywhere? Kathy: Yeah, the gloves are off. You can do whatever. You don’t need the hairnet, anything like that. Yeah. You can just get crazy. You can cook jambalaya barefoot, you know, whatever. Yeah, you haven’t showered for a few days — like, yeah, but they have they have

[11:19] a law that exempts jambalaya from some of the food safety rules. I guess it’s like a cultural thing. So, weird, right? Jason: Must have jambalaya. You were telling me one about like recess for grownups. Kathy: Well, actually this is for kids. Jason: Oh, it’s for kids? Okay. Kathy: This one — Jason: I’m not interested then. Kathy: Exactly. This one is not nearly as weird, but

[11:49] they have a law in Finland that for school-age kids, for every 45 minutes of class they have to have 15 minutes of recess. Outdoors. Jason: Outdoors? Kathy: Outdoors. Jason: Wait, where did you say this is? Kathy: In Finland. Yes. When it’s like, you know, minus 12. Jason: Yeah, there’s no black kids in Finland. Yeah, there’s a theme here. Kathy: The way the Finnish look at it — Jason: My people don’t do 15 minutes in the freezing cold. Kathy:

[12:19] Kathy: The way the Finnish look at it, they’re like, “Well, cold exposure and movement — like, this is resilience training. Get out there.” Jason: Okay. Tough people. So, it’s a one-to-one ratio — Kathy: No, 45, sorry. Jason: Okay. Kathy: 45 minutes of class, 15 minutes of break. Jason: So, a three-to-one ratio on that. So, they’re basically taking a break after every class then. Kathy: Every class. Yeah. Jason: All right, I could get with that. Kathy: Yeah, breaks are considered engines of learning. And this is my favorite —

[12:50] one of my favorite parts. According to one Finnish maxim, there is no bad weather, only inadequate clothing. Jason: Oh my gosh. Kathy: Compare it to the United States — Finland gives movement every hour. We give kids a chair and a Chromebook. Jason: Yeah, pretty much. Kathy: But I love it because this goes back to one of our favorite episodes — exercise snacks. Jason: Oh, totally, yeah. Kathy: Yeah, you know. And I was reading the article where I found this.

[13:23] Of course, they interviewed teachers and teachers are like, “Yes, this is excellent.” Even though the teachers are — oh, it gives the teachers a chance to get out and like smoke or vape or whatever. They find that the kids are more focused when they get back in class. Sure. So, they get — like when they change classes, they get 15 minutes to run wild. Yeah. Or not run wild, at least stand and talk to people. I mean, it totally makes sense to you even just from a mental health standpoint. ‘Cause like I find that I’m the most productive when I know that I have like a good vacation. Yes.

[13:53] Oh, there’s a cruise coming up. Mm-hm. Yeah, you know, I can — I can — power through this. To get these chart notes done. Yeah, you know what? Give me three more patients. I’ll stay a little extra long. ‘Cause you know, there’s something good coming. That’s right. Right? So, if you’re in there working on your ABCs — or I don’t know what they’re called in Finland. Mm-hm. Yeah, there’s not — I’ll tell you this, there’s not enough vowels. Whatever it is, okay? This is true. There’s a lot of consonants. There’s not enough vowels. A lot of sh’s. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know if that’s one

[14:23] of those cultures, but yeah, I mean, you could do 45 minutes of anything if I’m going to get to go out and play kickball — absolutely — in 45 minutes. Less than 45 minutes now because class has started, so I think we should do that at Encore. PTs — 45 minutes seeing a patient, and then 15 minutes you got to get outside. I don’t care if it’s raining. You can run around the block, something, and then back in to your next patient. That’s really kind of how we do it at Body of Health, but it’s the opposite. I’m going to spend 3 minutes with you, and then you have to leave.

[14:53] Yeah, if we can get it done in 90 seconds, even better. Highest volume possible. Now, but do you ever get outside during the day? Well, yeah, at lunch, for sure. And actually, now that the weather is better, I do take patients out into the parking lot. That sounds dangerous. After I said that, I was like, “That sounds dangerous.” Yeah. You’re like, “Well, looks like you’re almost better. Let’s go play out

[15:24] in the street.” If you can dodge the car. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You got to put this band around your ankles. Let me throw a ball at you, too. Yeah. Oh my goodness. No, but yeah, we go out and we, you know, go up and down curbs. We get in walking in the grass, uneven ground. So, yeah, it’s fun to kind of get outside. Out there in nature. Reverse it. Yeah. Love it. That’s good. Mm-hm. Oh, you

[15:56] know, let me — oh, what — oh, tell me about the the lunch one. This is the one where I thought that it was grown-ups. Oh, this is the grown-up one. Okay. Mm-hm. So, in France, they have labor laws that prohibit people from eating at their desk. Mm-hm. Mm-hm. I need a French-style workplace. Right? Me, too. Why can’t you eat at your desk? So, this actually started back in

[16:27] — how are you supposed to get crumbs in your keyboard? That’s funny. I just earlier today dumped some crumbs out of my keyboard. Not good. Really bad. Really bad. And my posture when I’m eating and staring at my — — computer. I need to see a chiropractor. The this law started in the 1890s, back in when they were mostly in factories.

[16:57] So, they were finding that people in the workplace were getting sick, like transmitting viruses to each other. So, they all decided — the the higher-ups decided that they needed to clean the air midday. Are we talking like STDs? ‘Cause if it’s STDs, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t the lunch. The other thing that we can’t do at work anymore. Okay, anyway, I digress — like a lot. All

[17:28] right. So, the theory was that it was the food. The food was causing the the illness. People — yes, they thought that eating at the workplace was spreading disease. Okay. So, they thought we have to clear the air — mm-hm — at some point in the day and let’s do it when people eat. These were clearly people who had seen my style of eating. Yes. So, yeah, so technically in

[18:00] France, you can’t eat at your desk. Is that still on the books today? It’s still on the books, but not as enforceable. Right, like nobody’s in front of the firing squad because — like, “Hey, what are you in for, Raul?” I stabbed a guy. “Oh, really?” “Yeah, what are you in for?” “I had a Lunchable at my desk.” “Okay, okay, settle down.” Yes, they were — you know, they were thinking that just as you flushed toilets, you had to flush the

[18:31] air. Mm-hm. And so they flushed people out midday and said, “You must leave. Take your lunch pails and leave the area and let’s clean the air.” That conjures up wonderful images of people literally working inside of a toilet. Well, how do you say in French? A toilet. A toilet. A bidet. I think that’s French. Yeah. Bidet is, yeah. Yeah, okay. I think that’s a pretty good law. I — you know, I would — we should enforce

[19:01] it. I’d be down with that, yeah. Yes, go to lunch. To tell myself that. Yep, go to lunch, right. Stop staring at the computer. Enjoy your food. Yes. I was reminded — I have another French one. Oh, yeah. In French schools, this is from 2011, there is a ketchup ban. Okay. So, yeah. So, there is only one context in which

[19:31] ketchup is allowed in French schools, and that is alongside French fries. Of course. Which are not French. Anyway, so — it says the stated rationale was protecting French culinary heritage. Hm. Yes. So, I guess in France you’re not supposed to put ketchup on anything except for the French fries. Is ketchup an American thing? Could it be? It probably is. It sounds so —

[20:01] sounds American. It’s so American. Yes. We probably just made it better. Yeah, so the French — no. They don’t want any of these kids accidentally putting ketchup on escargot. Right? Or like brie cheese or anything like that. You know, all the things that they would be tempted to do and so we need a law. So, the other thing too is that restricting condiments reduces the amount of sugar and salt. So, I mean, if you look at your condiments in your fridge,

[20:31] you know, unless you got them at like the co-op or some nerdy place like that, it’s probably got sugar and extra salt in it. So, yeah, okay. So, a little bit of evidence there. Kathy: If it doesn’t, it probably doesn’t taste good. Yeah, those French people aren’t all crazy. Oh, but the chewing gum ban that we alluded to in the beginning. This is an old one and I think — gosh, do you remember that crazy story about that guy who got caned? Oh my gosh, that was terrible. Thailand,

[21:02] right? Was it? Is it Thailand? I thought it was Singapore. Jason: Singapore? Okay. Kathy: Yeah, ‘cause Singapore, those guys are crazy like that, right? They — my dad used to go there on business and he’s like, “There is no litter in the streets.” So, like that’s part of the reason that they banned chewing gum. So, they don’t want the — they don’t want the gum getting on their stuff. Jason: I believe that. Kathy: So, really clean cities, but I got to check my facts. I think it was Singapore where that kid — and maybe it wasn’t gum, maybe he had spray painted something

[21:32] which would deserve — but they caned him. Remember that? Yes, like 100 times. Like his back was all blood. Jason: And I just remember like this — he’s like a college kid and he’s like crying like, “Please don’t hit me with the stick.” And like Bill Clinton was president. Kathy: Yes. Jason: “Please, Mr. Clinton, come and get me.” Kathy: Jason: And Clinton couldn’t help him. Kathy: No. Sorry, man. Yeah, most powerful man in the country could not stop them from spanking his hiney.

[22:02] It’s more than that. Kathy: Yeah. Well, and I seem to remember that half the country was like, “This is horrible. You’re hitting people with canes.” And the other half is like, “Go get a switch.” Jason: Kathy: Mhm, you broke the law. Pay the price. But yeah, you cannot do chewing gum in Singapore. Jason: Okay, good to know. But there is an exception. If you have a prescription for prescription gum, then you can. What is prescription gum? See, now

[22:32] when I mention it, you’re going to be like, “Oh, yeah.” But like the nicotine gum. Yeah, nicotine gum, or if it’s like some sort of like dental or oral thing. But better not spit that on the ground. I have a confession to make and this is something that bugs Mandy about me. I kind of have this thing where I like to spit my gum at religious sites. What? Into the

[23:04] bushes, right? Where it’s just getting — yeah, I don’t know. It’s just — Kathy: you go to temple, you just — Jason: Yeah, it’s just one of the ways that I worship. Yeah. Church Sunday, I’m just going to spit my gum in the bushes, you know. If I go to like a — like to tour like a Buddhist monastery or something like that, I’m going to put some gum in the bushes. Like never like on the sidewalk or anything. Kathy: on purpose? Like, “Hey, I brought gum so I can chew it and spit.” Jason: Yeah, now I do. Kathy: Now it’s a tradition? how it started, but it’s just like got noticed, and so I was like, “Yeah. Yeah,

[23:35] I’m going to do it.” Give me some gum, so. Yeah. So, this is why I intentionally do not go to Singapore. I have had all the spankings that I can handle in my life. My goodness. All right, what else have we got here? We got some good ones. Should we start getting into some that like actually make sense, though? Kathy: Yeah. Like there’s some of these that are pretty revolutionary, and they’ve had a pretty big impact on on their

[24:08] society. So, Japan has what’s called a metabo — Jason: Yeah. Yeah, this one’s really interesting. Kathy: Yeah, so since 2008, they have what are called specific health check-ups and specific health guidance. So, if you are between the ages of 40 and 74, you are required to go get an annual screening. Okay. And they’re going to check your waistline measurements, and they’re going to check like

[24:40] you’re going to do like a cardiovascular risk survey, and if — so, if you’re found to be out of range or out of compliance, it’s not like you’re going to go to jail or they’re going to give you a ticket or something like that, but you are required to do lifestyle guidance interventions with trained instructors, dieticians, and public health nurses. You have initial interviews and 3 months of follow-up. Yeah.

[25:11] And so companies and local government insurers face penalties — Jason: Ooh. — if participation targets are not met. Kathy: Insurance companies. Jason: So yeah, so you will have trouble at work if you cannot meet the guidelines. Wow. Kathy: think about that? Well, I — Jason: My thought is I like the intention. Kathy: Mhm.

[25:41] However, there’s a lot of reasons why somebody could be outside of the guidelines that they can’t control. Jason: Yeah. Well, I would quit podcasting and I’d have to start like walking. Kathy: So, it’s why I don’t live in Japan. The question is does it help the population? Has it proven to be effective? Jason: That’s an interesting question, and yes and no. Okay. So, let’s see. I think that there’s some numbers on it. So, there’s a

[26:11] study in JAMA Internal Medicine that found that the intervention was associated with significant reductions in body weight, waist circumference, and BMI. And also blood pressure reduced in men. So, what they found is that this was kind of more on an individual level though. Like for the people who had to do the counseling and everything like that, it was effective.

[26:41] But despite this program, if you look at the population as a whole, they still have a higher average A1C, Kathy: Jason: excuse me — average BMI between 1995 and 2019, and the prevalence of obesity and overweight among men has risen. Ladies are doing just fine. Kathy: Yeah, they’re just doing fine. But so it’s making a difference for individuals but the population still

[27:12] hasn’t quite caught up to it, but yeah, that’s a crazy thing. Jason: It is. I wonder about mental health and I wonder if there’s a rise in eating disorders. That’s a — Kathy: Bulimia or anorexia because of it. It’s a good question, man. Jason: Think about the social stigma of being outside the guidelines. Kathy: Yeah. Ooh. I wonder if you can get fired. Because it’s like if your company is going to get sanctioned for, you know, having a pudgy worker. Jason: They don’t want to be paying that. Kathy: No. Yeah. I mean

[27:43] Ooh. That’s definitely mandatory 15-minute movements every 45 minutes. There would be a lot of unemployable people in the US. Me included.

Kathy:

Jason: Same. Yeah. Got to cut back on the sushi, sir.

Kathy:

Jason: Here’s one that makes some sense, too. Back in 1985, in the United Kingdom, don’t ride the bus if you have the plague.

[28:13]

Kathy: Yes.

Jason: You cannot ride a taxi or any public transportation if you know you have plague or any notifiable disease including cholera, relapsing fever, smallpox, and typhus. It was illegal to get on public transport in London if you had the plague. And then a cab driver could refuse to carry a passenger he or she suspected might be infected.

Kathy: Yeah, well, we already mentioned you couldn’t go anywhere in Corvallis

[28:43] because everybody’s got allergies, right? Everybody’s walking around looking like they got the plague.

Jason: That’s right.

Kathy: Uh-huh. That was 1985 and it’s still on the books. I don’t know how enforceable it is, but it is still on the books, which probably was a good public health custom during COVID.

Jason: Yeah. Interesting.

Kathy: Mhm. Wow. Oh, let’s see. Where is it? Oh, another good one though

[29:13] is in Denmark. Yes, 2003. Denmark banned —

Jason: Oh, yeah.

Kathy: Now lots of countries have now, but Denmark was the first to do it at the industry level. So, they told companies, you cannot put trans fats in your food. And trans fats — they don’t occur in nature. And so, these were getting into food based on the manufacturing process, which is one of

[29:45] the reasons that it’s like good and easy to target them. But at the same time, these were like really high density fats. And so, very high in calories. I think they call it calories in Denmark.

Jason: They do. Yeah, so if you’re listening to the PTCH Podcast, you learned something today. So, they’re high in calories and there’s some argument about whether it increases your cardiovascular

[30:16] risk and things like that. But by limiting the use of trans fats in foods, there’s actually a pretty drastic effect on the population. So, the average —

Kathy: Excuse me.

Jason: — energy intake from trans fats dropped from 1.1% to 0.1%, and there were 1,191 fewer coronary heart disease deaths that were attributed

[30:48] to trans fats.

Kathy: Wow. So, literally saved some lives with this law.

Jason: Absolutely. Yeah, which is really, really cool. That’s an 11% overall decline in cardiovascular mortality during that period. That is incredible.

Kathy: Yeah, really good. So, good job, Denmark.

Jason: Yes, Denmark.

Kathy: They did it. They started it.

Jason: And they really kind of blazed a trail for everybody else. If anybody was sitting around waiting for proof, Denmark gave it to them.

Kathy: Yeah, and I was reading about it, the food industry, food manufacturers

[31:20] figured out how to reformulate things that were healthier.

Jason: They figured it out, and then people — you and me — didn’t have to make choices.

Kathy: Right. Well, because it’s already hard enough to help people understand nutrition stuff. Yeah. You don’t have to read labels. Are there trans fats in this? No.

Jason: Yeah. Well, and a long time ago, like in the ’80s — last century —

Kathy:

Jason: — they knew about different kinds of fats.

[31:50]

Kathy: Mhm. Like, you have your saturated fats, your unsaturated fats, your polyunsaturated fats, your medium-chain — they knew about all these things. They existed. But the concern whenever they were trying to give health advice was that people wouldn’t understand the difference.

Jason: Right. And so, then they just said, “Avoid fat.”

Kathy: Yeah, that was bad. So, then you had the low-fat movement in the ’80s,

Jason: Goodness.

Kathy: which led to pretty significant

Jason: Mhm.

Kathy: health problems because you replaced the fat calories with sugar,

[32:23] like pure sugar. And destroyed a lot of people’s health. And so, there are healthy fats, and they should be eaten in moderation. Like, understanding that fat is calorie dense.

Jason: Yeah. And so, while you can eat fat, you got to understand that if you have something that’s fatty, you should be eating just less in general because you’re getting more energy out of it. Yeah. Pretty interesting.

Kathy: They didn’t trust us to be smart enough

[32:53] to know the difference. And probably proven right.

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy:

Jason: Yeah, they somehow knew that Instagram was coming.

Kathy: I mean —

Jason:

Kathy: I mean, Doritos? Yeah.

Jason: Oh, yeah. Man, so good. Those trans fats.

Kathy: I had not eaten Doritos for probably about 25 years until like a couple months ago. And I was like, I’m going to try one of these nasty things. And they’re actually pretty tasty.

Jason: Yeah. I found that I had to eat like four or five of them and then I

[33:25] just quit. I’m going to give it another 25, 30 years, see how Doritos do.

Kathy: That’s — oh, I brought up Instagram and there is this trend on social media of people wanting to drink raw milk.

Jason: Ah.

Kathy: And even our —

Jason: What are we doing here?

Kathy: — our supreme leader RFK Jr., MAHA commander-in-chief —

Jason: Yes.

Kathy: — has also gone on podcasts and stuff talking about the value or the virtues of drinking raw milk.

[33:56]

Jason: Mhm. So, can I tell you about some of those virtues?

Kathy: Please.

Jason: Does he drink it every day?

Kathy:

Jason: That’d be good.

Kathy:

Jason: So, I don’t know. The raw milk thing is interesting because we have one data set about raw milk, but this data set is used to justify a range of laws. You have laws that make it completely illegal to sell raw milk in some states and you have other laws that protect the ability to sell raw

[34:27] milk in some states. But here are the facts. So, raw milk is consumed by only 3.2% of the population. The difference between raw milk and — I guess — unraw milk

Kathy: Yeah.

Jason: is pasteurization, yeah. So, pasteurization — you’re rapidly heating up the milk, it kills off the bacteria. Now, the raw milk people are like, we want the bacteria. Here’s the problem with that. So, there’s some bacteria out there that are good for us and then there’s others that are — well, I would classify them as

[34:57] potentially deadly. So. So, 3.2% of the population drinks raw milk, but 96% of dairy-related illness comes from raw milk.

Kathy: Okay, 96%?

Jason: Yes. So, if you have a problem with milk, it’s probably because it was raw, right? Good chance. You are 840 times more likely to get an illness from

[35:27] raw milk than you are from a pasteurized milk product.

Kathy: What’s one of these illnesses that I would get?

Jason: Oh, I’m so glad you asked. Have you ever heard of a little something called salmonella? Yeah, it’s just a deadly bacterial infection. There’s 171 cases of salmonella that are related to a single California raw milk dairy farm. And that’s 70% of the cases — in children under 18 are related to raw milk.

[35:57] Kathy: Whoa.

Jason: Yeah. So, states where retail sale of raw milk is expressly allowed, they have an estimated 3.2 times more outbreaks of salmonella than other states.

Kathy: What?

Jason: I wonder if there’s a relationship.

Kathy:

Jason: But, and it’s not just salmonella, there’s campylobacter, there’s listeria, which listeria is deadly. Yeah, it’s like —

Kathy: Goodness.

Jason: I’ll put it this way. I’m going to grant that maybe there is

[36:27] some value to drinking raw milk, but it’s kind of like saying there is some value to playing Russian roulette, you know? I squeezed the trigger and did not bang bang myself in the head because there’s no bullet in the chamber. That’s a benefit, right? Plus, maybe I feel more confident and fortunate and maybe a little more alive. And it’s all fun and games until I do bang bang myself in the head. And so, I

[36:57] guess what I’m trying to say, Kathy, is don’t drink raw milk.

Kathy: Don’t drink — it sounds like a gamble. I don’t care what anybody on the internet says. I don’t care how many times they’ve drunk it and they feel okay. Don’t drink raw milk. And if you want to drink raw milk, drink raw milk. Do not give raw milk to your children.

Jason: Please do not. Children are more impacted by this than adults. And it would really suck. It would really suck if your kid got a serious bacterial infection, possibly died. So, if you drink raw milk, you are not allowed to go to

[37:28] the hospital.

Kathy:

Jason: Yeah, the only way to fix it is probably more raw milk.

Kathy:

Jason: By that logic. Right? But it’s crazy to me that there are states that, having this information, still expressly protect the sale and use of raw milk. I am so excited for when somebody jumps in the comments and says, “You guys should do some freaking research before you put that” — Yeah, I did my research. And this is what it says about raw milk

[37:58] because you’re missing out. Yeah, 2025 CDC report. There’s my research. “Shh, that’s fake news. That’s old regime.” Yeah.

Kathy: 2025.

Jason: Yeah, that is the Biden —

Kathy: Yeah. That is the Biden — what is it? Food and Drug Administration?

Jason: Yeah. I didn’t know that this stuff was politicized, actually. I don’t care who is in office.

Kathy: My god.

Jason: The science is the science.

Kathy: No, it is. Just this.

[38:28] Jason: Can we talk about your profession a little bit, though?

Kathy: Please, let’s do it. So, what about laws regarding direct access to physical therapy?

Jason: Yes. That’s a weird law.

Kathy: It is a weird law.

Jason: Weird that we would need a law.

Kathy: Yeah. Yes.

Jason: So, talk about that.

Kathy: So, the reason the law came about was patients were forced to go see a primary care, and then get a referral

[38:58] to see a PT. Like, you couldn’t come straight to see a PT without a referral from a physician. And so, as a profession, that was one of the things also that spurred us to get a doctorate. Mhm. So that we could say to insurance companies, “Hey, we have advanced training. We’re not going to kill somebody. We know —”

Jason: Barrier of entry.

Kathy: Yes. We know red flags. Mhm. So, please let them come see us

[39:28] without seeing a physician first.

Jason: Well, and that was kind of actually one of the arguments — “If we just have direct access to physical therapists, patients will die.” Like, I was reading about this, and that is seriously the argument that some people made. Was that you’re putting lives at risk if people are just allowed to go to the physical therapist first.

Kathy: Had to be the AMA, right? Because they didn’t want to lose their copay.

Jason: Yes, yeah. So, but there’s plenty of evidence, multiple meta-analyses, systematic reviews,

[39:58] that show that people did not die as a result of just being able to go straight to a physical therapy clinic.

Kathy: Thank god. We got lucky. I mean, could have turned out worse. Could have been the raw milk people.

Jason: The raw milk people that came in. Yeah. Yeah, and we are, you know, lower-cost

Kathy: Mhm.

Jason: healthcare providers. We provide a lot of bang for your buck, basically.

Kathy: Absolutely. And so there are studies that say the earlier you get to PT the

[40:30] better outcomes that you’re going to have. Totally. Well, and we have to look at the healthcare situation in the country.

Kathy: Mhm.

Jason: Right now we have a doctor shortage of about 150,000. Right? So, 150,000 doctors that we are short.

Kathy: Mhm.

Jason: There’s something called the — what is it called? The silver tsunami?

Kathy: Oh.

Jason: What do they call it? Where we have so many old people.

Kathy: Oh, yeah.

Jason: Right? We just have so many people that —

Kathy: We do.

Jason: We have more people over the age of

[41:00] 85 now than we’ve probably ever had in the history of history.

Kathy: Wow. And significant burden on the healthcare system. That’s why we’re short. And we know that this is going to persist. It’s actually going to get worse —

Jason: Going to get worse.

Kathy: — because we know what the inputs are. We know how many people are getting into the system and the medical training system has not changed. It’s not cheaper, it’s not more efficient, it’s not making doctors faster. Maybe the only changes that have happened are in terms of increasing

[41:30] the scope for nurse practitioners and physician assistants — associates, whatever you want to call them.

Kathy: Yeah.

Jason: Right? Even then there are not enough people to help out.

Kathy: There really isn’t.

Jason: Yeah, I think I was reading in Massachusetts it is — I’m going to butcher this — I think there’s 408 doctors per 100,000 people.

Kathy: Whoa.

Jason: And that is considered a high area of medical coverage.

Kathy: Wow.

Jason: You get some of these other places

[42:00] and it’s like 130 doctors per 100,000 people. And 100,000 people. Which is insane. It’s dangerous. It’s really, really dangerous. And so anything that is making a barrier to a qualified competent health care provider — yes — doesn’t… I mean, you should not worry about people going to PT and dying. You should worry —

Jason: Yeah, you should worry about the people who are dying because the person who should have been going to PT can’t get in to see their primary care doctor.

Kathy: Yes. Right? And so you need to get

[42:31] people out of the primary care system that are clogging it up. Tell them to go see a chiropractor, physical therapist, massage therapist, nurse practitioner, an acupuncturist. I mean, even if it’s like, “Oh, I don’t think those things work.” It’s like, if people can get relief and get better and now they don’t need to go to the freaking ER because their neck’s a little sore —

Jason: Yeah. Right?

Kathy: Mm-hmm. That’s how you save lives.

Jason: That’s exactly how I see it. And the worst part about this, Dr. Schwartz, is we’ve seen it coming. Absolutely.

[43:01] We knew it was coming. They talked about it when I was in school, right? 20 years ago.

Kathy: Yeah, we did nothing about it. No, we’ve decided to have turf wars.

Jason: Yes. Instead. You know, I see young people — even young people are not going to PT school — and I know a young person who’s not going to go to med school because they don’t want to go into debt and they don’t want to do, you know, that many years in school. Yeah. There’s got to be a change with that. Yeah, and we just have to get creative with it, and I think it’s very

[43:32] easy to kind of want to double down and protect turf. Mm-hmm. And nobody wants to lose scope and also nobody wants to lose credibility. But we have to get a lot smarter, a lot smarter about how we handle this. Mm-hmm. Otherwise, we’re going to run out of people who make it to over 85.

Kathy: Absolutely. I mean, it is already a crisis and it’s only going to get worse. And it disproportionately affects people who are not the mainstream, right? So

[44:02] yes — who are — yep — minorities, it disproportionately affects women. It disproportionately affects people who are living in poverty. And so, very, very important thing. I got dark fast.

Jason: Get dark. Can you bring some light to it and talk about the chiropractors?

Kathy: Oh, jeez. That’s not a source of light.

Well, I think the thing that we’re going to bring up here was — I think one thing that’s great is

[44:33] chiropractic is licensed and regulated in all 50 states. That’s a fairly recent thing. The ’70s is when you finally got your last state that licensed chiropractic, and that was Louisiana.

Kathy: Of course. Of course, right? They’re out there cooking their dirty jambalaya.

Jason: Jambalaya.

Those dirty chiropractors out there cooking jambalaya out there in the bayou.

Doing cervical adjustments.

Kathy: Yeah.

Yeah, so but one of the one of the big

[45:03] things is that there’s kind of this pretty big gap in scope of practice. Like, you have some states that are very restrictive. Like, for example, I would consider Washington a very restrictive state. Given what you’re trained to do, they don’t allow you to do a whole bunch of things. It’s mostly like, let’s get in there — you can get in there and you can get an adjustment, and those are the things that you can do. So a lot of the modalities aren’t available to them. Never mind the fact that the evidence

[45:33] doesn’t really support that that’s always the most effective thing that a chiropractor can do. And so that’s kind of a crazy law. And then Oregon is a very good state — you can do just about anything that you want. New Mexico, I believe — you can even have some prescriptive rights, which I personally think is insane.

Kathy: Yeah, I honestly don’t want that.

Jason: Yeah, I do not want it.

Kathy: I literally do not want that.

Jason: Your place got broken into and people were looking for —

Kathy: Yes. Drugs is what they were looking for.

Jason: For the drugs.

[46:03] Right. And so, yeah, I didn’t get into chiropractic because I want to give people, you know, tramadol or whatever.

Kathy: No. And you know, I can understand some reasons that you might want it. Like, if you want to do lidocaine or something like that. In Oregon, I can recommend — like, over-the-counter medication

Kathy: Mm-hmm. at a prescription dose. So,

Jason: Mm-hmm. Excuse me, like a prescription dose of

[46:33] ibuprofen or things like that. But there are some states where you can’t even recommend somebody taking over-the-counter drugs.

Kathy: Yeah, for PTs it’s out of our scope.

Jason: Oh, well, that makes sense. You guys don’t know anything.

Kathy: No.

That’s true. People ask me that all the time and I — it’s out of my scope, I can’t really give you advice on it professionally. I say, “But what have you taken in the past and what has your doctor told you?” Yeah, meanwhile I’m like, “Okay, so here’s the — you want to — you want to crush up — you want to crush up that Aleve and then — and then if you can just

[47:03] put it in a glass of water, mix in a little bit of like the Dimetapp.” Over the Dimetapp. Don’t forget the Benadryl with that.

Jason: I’m teaching people to make their own like over-the-counter compounding pharmacies. All right, Kathy. I think we should get to a game.

Kathy: Okay, we should.

Jason: I’ve got a game for you. It’s very on topic, which — this is kind of a weird episode because it’s like the whole thing’s been like a game, because it’s just weird stuff that we’re talking about.

Kathy: Yeah. So, here’s how this one is going to work.

[47:33] This is — I wanted to call this like GOAT, because that’s such a great acronym, but it’s actually going to be called GAOT. GAOT.

Kathy: GOAT, but we had to switch the A and the O. Here’s why. It’s Government Agency Origins Trivia.

Jason: Ooh. Oh, boy. Okay. Okay.

Kathy: GAOT.

Jason: GAOT. Let’s GAOT.

Kathy: Maybe that’s from Norway. I don’t know.

My black Finnish origins. All right. So,

[48:03] What I’m going to do is I’m just going to read you these are facts. These are like real stories of real things. And by the time I get to the end of it, I want you to tell me what US government agency was shaped by that series of events. You ready? I think so. Get it. It’s going to be good. Okay, here we go. So, number one, in the early 1900s, a government chemist named Harvey Wiley recruited a group of young men to eat meals laced with common food preservatives like borax, formaldehyde,

[48:33] and salicylic acid. Salicylic acid is aspirin. Oh, right. Okay. An experiment the press dubbed the Poison Squad. Around the same time, a novelist hoping to expose the plight of immigrant workers accidentally horrified the nation with descriptions of rats, human fingers, and other contaminants ending up in sausage meat. These two forces helped push through a landmark 1906 law, but it wasn’t until

[49:04] 1937, when over 100 people, mostly children, died after drinking raspberry-flavored medicine — Oh my god. — mixed with a chemical cousin of antifreeze, that the government demanded companies actually prove their products were safe before selling them. Got to be the FDA, right? Yes, you are right. One other little part I’ll add in here. Then, in the early 1960s, a single stubborn government reviewer refused to approve a

[49:34] popular European sleeping pill, sparing the country from an epidemic of severe birth defects that had already devastated families abroad. Wow. And her defiance — yes — led to a new rule where companies now had to prove their products actually worked, and not just that they wouldn’t kill you. That was thalidomide, right? So — oh, that was thalidomide. Children of thalidomide. Yes. All right, very good. FDA, all right. Lesson two. Yes. During World War II, the US military had a problem. More soldiers

[50:05] stationed in the American South were being taken out by mosquito-borne disease than by enemy fire. The government set up a small agency in Atlanta, right in the heart of malaria country, armed with trucks full of DDT and a mission to spray every swamp, ditch, and puddle in the region. The grueling campaign worked, virtually wiping out malaria in the United States. But when the war ended, the agency’s employees didn’t want to close up shop. They pivoted from fighting one disease to tracking all of

[50:36] them, eventually sending teams of disease detectives around the world to hunt down outbreaks of everything from smallpox to mysterious new viruses. This is the CDC, which has been dismantled. Dismantled, but I think that when they dismantled it, they discovered, “Oh, crap.” That was a discovery. “Oh, crap.” So now — back, right? Yeah, I think that the woman they’re putting in charge of the CDC, she seems like she’s very competent. Okay. Yes, and so hopefully we’re not

[51:07] — some hope. So yes, that was the CDC. All right, our next one. What would we need that for? In 1969, an oil rig off the coast of Santa Barbara, California blew out, dumping millions of gallons of crude oil into the Pacific, coating 35 miles of coastline in black sludge. That same year, Ohio’s Cuyahoga — Cuyahoga — I can’t — I’m sorry if you’re listening from Ohio. Do you know how to say it, Ryan? Cuyahoga. Cuyahoga. Yeah, Cuyahoga, all right — River, so choked with industrial waste and oil slicks that locals joked

[51:37] nothing could survive in it, literally caught on fire, sending flames five stories high. Meanwhile, cities like Los Angeles were blanketed in smog so thick that children were sometimes kept indoors at recess. I remember actually living in the Bay Area, I remember having smog days. And a best-selling book called Silent Spring had already warned that pesticides were poisoning birds, fish, and the food chain itself. Within a year, 20 million Americans took to the streets for the first ever Earth Day, and the president responded by putting

[52:08] together 15 scattered federal programs into a single new agency by executive order. This agency is — the EPA. The EPA, the Environmental Protection Agency, also dismantled. Run by an oil tycoon. Yes, we’re just waiting for another river to catch on fire. Okay, question four. 1907, a coal mine in — I’m going to butcher this one, too — Monongah? Yeah, Monongah, West Virginia, exploded, killing 632 —

[52:38] or 362 miners — in the deadliest industrial disaster in American history, though some estimates put the real toll even higher. For decades afterwards, factory and mine workers continued to face horrifying hazards with little legal protection. Match factory workers developed phossy jaw, a condition in which exposure to white phosphorus caused their jawbones to literally rot out and glow in the dark. Oh my — Textile workers inhaled cotton dust until their lungs gave out, a condition called

[53:09] byssinosis, or brown lung. Then in 1968, another coal mine explosion in Farmington, West Virginia killed 78 miners, and the disaster, broadcast on live television for the first time, shocked the nation into action. Two years later, the president signed a law creating a new agency with the power to set and enforce workplace safety standards for the first time in American history. Department of Labor. Not quite. Oh, gosh. What is it? It’s not been —

[53:39] OSHA. OSHA, okay. Occupational Safety and Health Administration. Last one, ready? In 1887, a young doctor working out of a single room in a marine hospital on Staten Island began inspecting immigrants arriving by steamship for signs of cholera and other infectious diseases. That tiny one-room laboratory, equipped with little more than a microscope, was called the Laboratory of Hygiene. Over the years, it grew into a research

[54:09] powerhouse, but its expansion was turbocharged by some unlikely events. During the Great Depression, a group of prisoners in Louisiana volunteered for pellagra experiments that helped prove the disease was caused by nutritional deficiency, not an infection. Later, a polio-stricken president personally championed the idea that the federal government should fund medical research on a massive scale. By the mid-20th century, that one-room lab had transformed into a sprawling campus

[54:40] in Bethesda, Maryland, housing dozens of specialized institutes and becoming the largest funder of biomedical research in the world.

Kathy: Mhm, the HHS. That is actually the NIH.

Jason: Oh, the NIH.

Kathy: The National Institutes of Health. Interesting stuff, right?

Jason: Good. Yeah. So, we have all these crazy laws from all over the place. Like, you have some novelty ones like, “Hey, it’s illegal to get sick, guys. Woohoo!”

Kathy: Two things that are just really making a

[55:10] huge impact in saving lives, so weird stuff, but I think really good. Yeah. Take homes? Take homes, don’t get overweight in Japan. No, don’t do it. You’ll lose your job. And mine is going to be quit eating lunch at your freaking desk. Guys, get out, get outside.

Jason: Clear the air.

Kathy: Yes, I — we could just take all of it, you know? All of it is true.

Jason: Go outside every 45 minutes for 15 minutes.

Kathy: Yes. Eat your lunch, drink your pasteurized milk, do a little physical

[55:42] therapy.

Jason: Let’s do it. Don’t ask your doctor if you have to, either, right? Don’t work in a mine that’s going to explode. All kinds of things. So much goodness in this episode. So much.

Kathy: I have a special request — if you’re still listening, it’s because you’re a die-hard fan and we love you. You’re the people we love the most. We hate the people that only listen to the first 13 minutes.

Jason: Yeah. We love you people that are here, you know, close to the hour. That’s right. Here’s what we would ask of you.

Kathy: Yes, yeah. It’s just you, Amy. It’s just — it’s just Amy and us.

[56:12] Would you leave us a comment? Just let us know that you were here at minute — let’s see — 58, right? Just let us know minute 58 was the best minute of my life. That’s all the comment needs to be. The other thing that really helps us out is if you leave a review or give us some stars on the podcast. It helps other people to find us.

Kathy: Yes. Right. People who need to know about raw milk — they must know about the raw milk and chewing gum in Singapore. Yes, absolutely. How are they going to know about the chewing?

Jason: Yeah. Right?

[56:42] Yeah. Only you can tell them. Yes, and there’s one other thing that we could tell them, too. And that’s there’s no I in PTCH.