The Science of Running Fast: Cadence, Stride, and Speed

[0:00] I hear that it’s a myth that running is bad for your knees. Yeah. How many Olympic trials have you done? I’ve done five Olympic trials. Wow. Three worlds. And I’m going to do my 30th Prefontaine. I’ll do it. So I got up, I trained for 45 minutes, I went down, I ran in the first ever Corvallis half marathon. Nice. And I learned so much. You saw Jesus, didn’t you? I did. I did. The closer we get to that, the more we’re probably reducing our forces. Yeah. When you said

[0:31] 180 steps a minute, that made me a little tired. Is that how you run? Is that what? Whether you’re chasing a PR, just trying to make it around the block without pain, this episode’s for you. Let’s hit the ground running. What happens when a chiropractor and a physical therapist get together to make a health and wellness podcast? But chiropractors and physical therapists don’t like each other. Oh, think again. I’m — I’m Kathy Lynch, physical therapist who likes to help people move and get stronger. I’m Dr. Jason Young, an evidence-based chiropractor who uses humor just as much as adjustments to

[1:01] help people get better. Welcome to the PTCH Podcast. Remember, there’s no I in PTCH. All right. All right. Robin’s a native Montanan where she got her bachelor’s degree in athletic training and physical therapy. Go Grizz. Okay. She also got her master’s degree in sports medicine from the University of Oregon. Go Ducks. That’s right. Go Ducks. I can say it. Jason can’t. She has over 30 years of experience as a PT and athletic trainer working with all types of people, but

[1:31] specializes in working with runners. She’s worked many USATF championships, which she will get into with us today. She has also been a consultant with Nike and worked with many UO student athletes, but I’m lucky to call her a friend and mentor. Thanks for being here, Robin. Yes. So awesome. We’re glad to have — thanks for having me. Yeah. Can I like start out with a bit of a question? So, this — first of all — is one of our very most requested shows.

[2:01] Like, people are like, “Get a running expert on there. We want to hear about running, ‘cause there’s so much — you know, people are like, ‘Is it bad for you? Is it good for you?’” And everybody has opinions. So when I was talking about this with my family last night, one of my family members — she asked me to not tell you that it’s my oldest daughter who’s going to law school. Yes. Exactly. This is her question. Why do people get shin splints, and it feels like you’re going to simultaneously puke, pass out, and poop yourself all at the same time? So

[2:32] you don’t have to answer that right now, but just sometime during the episode, if you would speak to that, that would be great. And when I mentioned that you were here, she says, “Oh, she specializes in misery.” No, I’m nice after five. No, we’re glad to have you here. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, will you fill us in on the journey of how you got here? Certainly. Yeah. So I was an athletic trainer at the University of Montana and the team I worked with was

[3:02] the track and field team. And so I was lucky enough to see a job here back in 1988 advertised with the sports medicine doc who was the guru in Eugene. He actually had a Corvallis connection too. Okay. Yeah, he’s all right. Yeah, anyway, at the time in Eugene, you know, probably 100-plus world-class athletes were training there under Athletics West, USA — right? USA. And for some strange reason, I got the job when I interviewed with him, and partly

[3:33] because I did orthotics and I had a love of foot. And so in 1988 I came out and moved here, and kind of ever since then, you know, running has been my passion and my love as far as the biomechanics. And trust me, at the end of the day, a runner that weighs a buck 25 is a lot easier to work on than a 275-pound football player. Yes. So, you know, longevity-wise, it’s been great. And the fun part about running is you have, you know, sprint biomechanics which

[4:03] are totally different than long-distance biomechanics, different than say a triathlon. So you see a variety of different injuries at each kind of skill level, and then you see a whole different variety of things at different levels as far as just, you know, beginners to elites and stuff. So it’s a constant fun array of disaster that I get to unpack and fix and then help people experience the joy of moving in

[4:33] their body. Oh, that’s outstanding. You know, and so we have a half marathon here in Corvallis. It goes right by my house. And so we’re out there every year like ringing our cowbells and everything. Our neighbors hate us. We’re so sorry. None of them are listening. And one of the things that’s amazing though is there’s so many different ways to run, and they all look incorrect to me. But so that’s got to take a lot of kind of knowledge and understanding, because aren’t there a lot of

[5:03] right ways to run? Well, what’s really interesting is that — you know, if we take for instance shoes — they did a study, 900 runners, they looked at putting them in different shoes, and no matter what shoe they put them in, they still had a preferred path of movement. And that was the bottom line: there’s a preferred path of movement. Now whether that preferred path of movement is biomechanically efficient, usually the answer is no. And thank you, because I will be able to continue making a living. So when you say preferred path of movement, you’re talking about everybody runs the way they run — meaning

[5:34] that you could put them in an anti-pronation shoe and if they’re a pronator, they’re going to pronate. And part of it is you haven’t leveled up the system yet. This is the magic level. Yeah. So, you know, again, garbage in, garbage out. What’s the start posture? Has there been any education in helping people understand what the start posture should be for their foot all the way up to their pelvis, and then helping them understand how to support and build that so they can have a better movement pattern? And most of the

[6:05] time too, we have to figure out where people are asymmetrical, because that’s the big killer — if you’re asymmetrical in some manner, you’re guaranteed to have an injury. It’s just going to catch up with you whether you do too intense a speed workout, if you do too much long distance or hills — somewhere it’s going to come out if you keep pushing that envelope. So being able to figure out where we have mobility and stability issues, which are usually different on each side, because again, oftentimes we have a pattern that’s either, you know, a left stance

[6:35] pattern or a right stance pattern, meaning that one side’s going to have an issue with loading and the other side’s going to have an issue with push-off. Okay. So, and they’ll be fine in the other alternative pattern. So, if you give them the same exercises bilaterally and say, “Hey, you know, I want you to do this bilaterally,” you know, they may look better in their 501s, but they still got the same dysfunction when they go out and they run and move. So, you know, it’s not about — I think she got a degree in ‘88.

[7:05] Hey, man. They’re still around. They are. I didn’t say hash jeans, which was more like — oh my gosh. You’re out there running in your Hush Puppies, you know. Yeah. So, I just took another class from Robin. I think I’ve taken as many as I can. Oh, man. Until they stop letting me go. And this one was about — oh, ma’am. Ma’am, you’re going to need to sit down in the front, please. This one was about the fascial

[7:35] chain with runners. And I thought it was really interesting. She kind of started the class off, and I was hoping she’d kind of clarify it and kind of dumb this down for us. What she said — talk to me like I’m 10. What she said was, “Joints move, muscles react, and fascia thinks.” Yes, exactly. So, I can’t remember where I bought and stole this quote from, but I think it was Wolf, so but don’t quote me on that. But anyway — what, like Wolff’s law? Wolf, not Wolff’s law. That was another individual. Yeah.

[8:06] But anyway, what it means is essentially, you know, forces are what create movement in our body. So the two biggest forces that are the easiest to understand is gravity acting down through our body. And we see this in, say, like an older person who’s flexed forward and, you know, they got that hunched-over posture, and we can see, you know, which way their propensity is for how their body is moving. So as runners, obviously we don’t want to have that, but we have gravity acting down through our postures, and then when our foot hits the

[8:36] ground, then we have ground reaction force happening. So as a result of that, our bones begin to move, and then our muscles are what actually react to that movement by deciding, do I decelerate that or do I accelerate it? Most of the time they have to decelerate that motion, and then control it for a second, and then re-accelerate it the other way. But sometimes we get stuck thinking that, oh, it’s really just all about the muscles. And again, they’re really more slaves to the joints, because again, if a joint, for instance, is

[9:08] a little off-kilter and it’s not in a position where it’s centrated, then again you’re going to get a whole different story about what muscles show up if the forces around that joint aren’t stabilized. So you may think you’re getting, you know, a great butt when you’re doing all those bridges, but you may lack hip extension and you may just be building in a piriformis syndrome or a hamstring issue. So again, understanding that, you know,

[9:38] whatever request you’re making for a muscle, that joint has to be able to provide that mobility for you. So, man, how do you address this with somebody? Because what I found is if I try and fix people’s gait just even walking, I’m like, “Hey, think about this and think about this.” And when they start thinking about it, that’s when all the wheels come off, right? Because it’s like — like you said, people have this preferred path

[10:08] that they move through. And so, how do you alter somebody’s preferred path if it’s kind of what they want to default to? How do you do that without having them overthink their run or their walk or anything like that? Yeah, certainly. Well, if I’ve done my job and I’ve cleared up all the mechanical dysfunction so I know the system can do what I want it to do, then what we do is we start with control. Can you control in the sagittal plane? And explain to them what that sagittal plane is. But so explain to our listeners what a sagittal plane is. The sagittal plane is if you

[10:38] think about just moving forward, okay? You know, if you lift your knee up towards your chest, that’s flexion. If Tom Cruz — plane, plane — so but it’s more important for the pelvis. So the pelvis, you’ve got to be able to control the pelvis in the sagittal plane because it’s got to support 70% of your body weight. So you’re talking — when you say that, you’re talking about the pelvis tilting forward or the pelvis tilting back. You got it. Thank you. Doing with us sitting so much more, we have a tendency for the pelvis, or bucket, to tip forward.

[11:08] And if the bucket is tipping forward, then again, we’re not supporting all that weight above, and it’s going to totally change what biomechanics we have down below. So Jacqueline Perry said like probably 75% of what happens to the lower extremity is dictated by what the passenger unit is doing. So that becomes a really important part. So we look at — can you own, can you understand that sagittal plane first with the pelvis? Do we own those motions? And then we move to the next plane. So we might work on one

[11:38] step. Okay, we might step forward and go, can you maintain that posture the right way? These are the — this is the checklist I want you to feel. Did you feel that? So we kind of start to break it down a little bit so they have time to again evaluate. Did I go from bad to better? And that’s what I try and get them to understand — you can’t do multiple steps because you’re not able to keep track of what you did. But can you look at one repetition and ask yourself, did I go from bad to better without

[12:08] judgment? If you can do that without judgment, then you’re open to continue to learn and critique and get better at that motion. Did I land in a stable foot position, which we will talk about as far as a tripod position? Where was the bucket? Was it stacked? And we just kind of build from there. And it becomes something that, you know, it’s easy that they can implement throughout the day. And I do a lot of exercises like — if you go to the bathroom, do this exercise five times. You know, we’re going to do it four or five times, but we’re just going to do it four or five reps. And I

[12:39] just want you to, you know, we’ve got to make this your default because if you don’t have a great start posture, you’re not going to have an athletic posture when you want it. It’s really breaking it down, breaking it down and having them feel it, and being able to — you know, I can’t continue on the path if they don’t understand the initial building block. So, you talked about the pelvis tilting forward and back. I know that there are people now that are thinking, okay, so what are the problems that I get if I’m tilting my pelvis

[13:09] forward when I’m running, or like what are the problems I’m going to see if I’m tilting it back? Like, how’s that going to show up for somebody from the standpoint of now I need help? Yes, certainly. Yeah. So, the interesting thing is that we have to talk a little bit about breathing, and we actually have a device called the diaphragm. We have two diaphragms. I think I got one of those. You got one. She says I have two. Yeah. And the left is a little less efficient than the right. Okay. The right’s got a nice liver so it can lounge on the liver. And the left, you

[13:40] know, all of us people in the Northwest have big hearts. So that heart is pushing down on that left diaphragm. And so what it ends up doing is the left diaphragm is kind of a pansy. It doesn’t really like to breathe. And I’ve heard that your diaphragm does both breathing and stabilization. And so the left diaphragm will go, I’ll just stabilize. So it has a tendency to create that anterior tilting of the pelvis on the left side. Now, what that means — so the pelvis is

[14:10] tilting because the diaphragm, which is underneath the rib cage — for people who don’t know about the diaphragm. Yeah. So that’s controlling where my pelvis is. So you’re all connected, man. It’s all connected. Your diaphragm attaches down into the lumbar spine. And of course, its besties are, wait for it, psoas and QL. And they all attach together at the central tendon. We do a whole episode about hip flexors. Yeah. So these besties, you know, all feed into that pattern of the pelvis being

[14:40] tilted anteriorly. So essentially what happens is that left side then becomes like it’s stuck in swing phase. Yeah. And so you’re not good at loading. So you get all those lateral issues on like IT band on the left side, ankles, you know, sprains. You may end up having some plantar fasciitis issues, foot issues as far as metatarsalgia, bunions, all those kinds of things can happen because again you’re stuck in swing phase and you can’t really load. Well, the opposite tends to happen on the right side. That side tends to be

[15:10] really stable. So it likes that posterior tilt and it has a hard time, as I’d like to say, throwing the ball to the other side. You know, it tends to hog the ball. When it does throw the ball, it throws it really poorly. And so the left side again fails to commit. Yeah. To loading. And then if you don’t commit, we know how that ends up. That’s not going to be pretty. It’s not pretty. Yeah. Kathy, she’s a lot smarter than I am. I told you this was

[15:40] going to be fun. Yeah. Why do you think I take every class she teaches? I guess so, right? And so can you — I need to take some classes. I know. So can you. Yeah. Yeah. Let’s circle back. Okay. Okay. I met Robin when I took her first class. But I’ve also had the privilege to stand next to her while she treats athletes at the US Olympic trials because you’ve done that. You treat athletes at the — how many times

[16:11] have you done it? I’ve done the Olympic trials twice. And that’s why we want to talk to Robin because I’ve watched her treat athletes on the table. They go in and they either practice or they compete and they come back and they’re like, “That’s the farthest I’ve thrown the hammer.” And okay. Yeah, I’ve seen it with my eyes. So how many Olympic trials have you done? I’ve done five Olympic trials. Wow. Three worlds. And I’m going to do my 30th Prefontaine — 30th in a few weeks. Oh my gosh.

[16:41] Wow. It’s pretty amazing. That’s when the Prefontaine was like the wild wild west. Yes. Steve was at that one, right? Just about. Yeah. Just about. So you’re pretty much a fixture there then. People show up and they’re looking for Robin Pester. They actually do. Is Robin here this year? They’re like, “Hi, who are you?” And you’re like, “I’m Kathy.” And they’re like, “No, get out of my way. Where’s Robin?” Do you know Robin? Yes. Yes, I do. That’s great. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty fun. So is it even exciting for you anymore to do these things?

[17:12] Prefontaine. Okay. You know, it always is. You know, for me, at this point, it’s always one of the things I love the most — the people who are doing their last Olympic trial. And I love helping them succeed more than they thought they could because I give them an ending to their story. That’s good. That’s cool. Can you tell us about maybe one person that was meaningful? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Last year, this gal hops on my table, Loretta. And I

[17:44] kept calling her Rachel because I have an aunt named Rachel and Loretta — oh, really? Okay. And so anyway, I like Rachel a little bit better — I’m sorry. Well, she’s not — I was going to apologize if she was close. Okay. All right. Fair. So anyway, she hopped on my table and she’s a high jumper and anyway she had only competed in one meet to get into the trials because she had basically retired. She missed in

[18:14] 2012 and 2016. She had had various injuries in the posterior kinetic chain. 2020 she just passed. So I mean, it had been a while since she competed but her coach said, I think you can do it. Why don’t you compete one more time? So she managed to get the qualifier, ends up on my table. Her ankle is a hot mess. Oh no. Syndesmosis sprain. It’s just a hot mess. And she — so it was a hot mess and she knew it. Somewhat, but not to the gut. So I’ve got a few little tricks in my bag because there’s a

[18:44] difference between an athlete being like, “Oh yeah, I’m good. I can go. I can do it.” But then like you look at it biomechanically, it’s like you’re going to have trouble, right? Yeah. You’re leaking energy like crazy. Yeah. So anyway, hops on my table, you know, we do some pre-work, you know, tune her up over the next couple days before she’s ready to compete. She goes out and competes and she ends up getting in a jump-off with like three or four other people. A jump-off. Yeah. And so, long story short, she manages to make it through the jump-off because they only take eight to the final. And so anyway,

[19:16] you know, there’s a couple days in between, so we tune up. We keep working on stuff and then she comes back for her final kind of tuneup and she’s walking towards me and we’re talking and I’m looking at her jacket and I’m like, “Is that a — is that a ladybug?” And I go, “That’s a ladybug. You know, those are good luck.” So I look it up and I show her on my phone. She goes out and competes and comes back and she got eighth in the country. Oh my gosh. Eighth in the country. Wow. Her mind, body, and spirit. Yeah. So I ended up creating a program for her

[19:47] when she went back home and making sure he got well and took care of that issue. But those are often times some of the fun experiences of, you know, it just doesn’t end after the meet, but you know, giving them that additional support that they’ve been missing because they haven’t had somebody that could diagnose their problem and stuff. So, yeah. Yeah. And are you a runner yourself? I am. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Do you ever get injured? Funny you should ask. That’s how I keep learning new stuff. Well, this doesn’t work.

[20:18] I like to say, I grew up on the prairie, so it’s not natural to run because there aren’t a lot of things that chase you. So, yeah. Yeah, good point. Yeah, that’s kind of my — that’s kind of my running philosophy. Run if you’re being chased. Okay. Actually, I did a half marathon. Well, I’ve done a few half marathons and I know I’m built like a — like a half marathon. Usain Bolt is what I — Yeah. Well, I was thinking more sprinter. Yeah. Well, my people are not Kenyan. I’ll put it that way. I mostly run out of spite, right? Just to prove

[20:49] the very first time I ever ran a half marathon. I was in bed one Sunday morning and I get a call from one of our massage therapists and he sounds awful. He’s like, “Doc Young, I can’t run in the half marathon. Do you want my bib?” And I was like, uh, so Joe, I don’t run — like I never run. I’m not a runner at all. I don’t enjoy it or anything like that. He’s like, I know. I’ve just called other people and nobody wants it. So I just thought that I’d call you. So, well, hang on. I rolled over and I

[21:21] said to my wife, I was like, “Hey, you cool with me running a half marathon today?” She said, “Just as long as you’re done by the time it’s time to go to church.” I was like, “All right, cool.” So I said, “All right, dude. I’ll do it.” So I got up. I trained for 45 minutes. I went down. I ran in the first ever Corvallis half marathon. Nice. And I learned so much. You saw Jesus, didn’t you? I did. I did. I saw Jesus’s hurt. I saw all of them.

[21:51] No, but I learned that like at first it was really fun, you know? I’m out there and I’m running — it’s kind of a social thing. I was like, I could be a runner. This is all right. And then the first like downhill came and I was like, “No, this is not all right.” That’s when I learned that you can keep running even though you have a cramp. And then I learned that you can have a cramp in each leg and you can keep running, but it requires that you cry. And I learned how to run while saying swear words in my heart. And yeah, but it was interesting because I learned some things about my

[22:22] body and my limits. Because I got to the end and I just had a cramp in literally every muscle group of my legs and I had probably about a half mile to go and we’re running into Reser Stadium and I was just like — this is so — I said it out loud. This is so stupid. This is dumb. Like I’m so close here and I can’t walk at all. Said, you know what I’m going to do? I’m just going to sprint. Oh my god. So I was like, all right, I’m going to sprint. So I start sprinting. There’s people who are stopping to check on me and I’m running by. I’m like, get out of my way. And like

[22:53] I made it down in there and there’s a picture of me somewhere with like ice packs taped to my legs and I’m sitting in church. And this is why I don’t cover race like that. Yeah. For events like — Exactly. You’re a little bit above that. So yeah. And then the last thing that I ran in — I ended up running in Hood to Coast. I was still not a runner. Yeah. And that was literally the last time that I physically ran — like six, seven years ago. Yeah. But yeah, so it’s uh

[23:25] there. So there’s people that love running and it’s like their therapy and everything like that. There’s people that absolutely hate it. Why do you think — why do people hate running and how would you take somebody who maybe is having a terrible experience running and how could they have like a good experience? Like what are maybe some things that they could change that would make it better for them? Yeah. I think one of the things that’s kind of misunderstood is that you can run to get into shape. You should really get into shape and

[23:55] then run. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think you need to have a certain amount of skill sets, you know, as far as strength, mobility before you consider running. Otherwise it’s just going to feel miserable. Yeah. This is like the burpees. Yeah. Don’t do the burpee, you know. And then I think, you know, really having a game plan as far as really looking at things and going, okay, if I want to get better at this, which system is going to limit me first — breathing. Breathing is going to limit you first. So if you can’t nasal breathe then you’re going to walk.

[24:25] So you run as long as you can nasal breathe and then when you can’t nasal breathe you walk, because one of the things we know is that as you fatigue your inspiratory muscles — meaning the diaphragm, again, because we already called it out as being a pansy — is that you get an increased risk of injuries because not only does it not like to breathe then, it’s definitely not stabilizing. So it would rather breathe than stabilize. So if I could be a better breather I could be a better runner. You could. So that’s a good place to start. That’s a great place to start, you know, and

[24:55] going out and walking, and you know, you may start to do a little bit of run — and then see when you start to lose your coordinated breath and then go back to walking. So it may take you a little longer, but you’re going to get to where you need to be quicker if you understand you train for respiratory first, then the muscular system. So how do I do that? Like, how do you train for respiratory? Just sit there and breathe. Some of it. Very good. I do like the heavy breathing. Okay. Appreciate it for

[25:26] — I’m intuitive. So intuitive. Okay. Okay. So, but we do do a lot of stuff around breathing just because breathing is so important in regards to the deep front line, the diaphragm. So, any cool kid who ever wanted to be on the core team is on the deep front line and the diaphragm is the team leader of that. Okay. And so in all our exercises we’re doing, we’re synchronizing that breath and understanding how that diaphragm works with the other two key domes, which are the foot dome and the pelvic floor

[25:57] So we’re doing a lot of those sort of things. Then we’re also just looking at programs as far as how do you not get injured? Well, you want to kind of have a system. And one of the things I use with my athletes, whether they’re coming back from an injury or if they’re just trying to start out on not running for a while, is we use the traffic light. So the traffic light system framework is obviously, you know, if you’re green, that means go, right? So that means is your pain 0 to 3 out of 10 when you’re running and is it gone

[26:27] within 24 hours? Okay. So is it 4 to 6, which is going to be yellow, and 7 to 10. So yellow means go faster. Yeah. So exactly, yellow means hurry up. So when we have some of those frameworks then we’re not, you know, forced to listen to this thing which is really domineering at times and misleads us a lot. So it’ll talk you out of doing a lot of things that you could be doing — some really bad, totally, like a half marathon. Wow. 45 minutes of training. That is

[26:59] correct. That’s amazing. I’m the first — you finished that. I spent most of that 45 minutes — you did make it to church. Did you make it to church? I did make it to church. Yes. Oh my gosh. Yes. Because, you know, like you said it, I saw Jesus and so I was like, Jesus was like, “You better get to church.” Yes, sir. Yes, sir. So, all right. Let’s see if we can help out some of the recreational runners in town listening across the nation. Yes. To the PTCH Podcast, across all the

[27:30] — in all the places. Okay. Common injuries you see in runners. Yeah, definitely. I mean, probably the knee and ankle and foot are the most common injury sites that we see, and a lot of it is a result of, again, a little bit of overstriding, and it’s really easy for people to kind of reach too far when you’re running. Okay. Yeah. So you want your stride to be longer in the back than in the front. And depending on a lot of postures that we get into, we can really create a

[28:00] posture that wants to facilitate more of that overstriding, which then results in a whole lot more braking action that we have to do. And then so what does that mean? Braking — decelerating, slowing that motion down. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. And so if we, you know, again kind of look at that, that oftentimes is an issue in regards to where are we landing on the ankle. The ankle is kind of like a ball bearing. Yep. And so it dictates both posture and movement. And so if you’re starting off centered from

[28:31] that ankle — pronated or supinated — the most common thing is pronation. So, for people who are listening, pronation is when your foot is rotating in, when your foot is rotating in towards like the inside of your knee. And then supination is when you’re kind of running on the sides of your foot. Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, again, if we’re kind of pronated, that’s going to lead to a lot more injuries because we’re going to get stuck. You know, we need to have that ankle joint be able to kind of be the place that we’re steering forces from

[29:01] rather than just crashing into the ground and getting stuck there. Don’t want to pound your ankle. Exactly. So, those are the common areas. So we can see all sorts of things. A lot of things are like patellofemoral pain, which is pain around your kneecap. It’s often called runner’s knee pain. You can have IT band syndrome, which is super common — it’s just right on the side of the thigh there. That’s the ice pick in the knee, which is quite enjoyable. Yeah. If you’ve ever had it. Yes, I’ve had that. Well, and I hear it’s a myth. I don’t —

[29:32] we’re jumping to the myth busting. Let’s go. What’s the myth? I hear that it’s a myth that running is bad for your knees. Yeah. So, you know, I think Kathy told — I did tell you. Yeah, it’s a myth. There’s a study out there. The knees are a commonly injured area, but at the same time, running isn’t necessarily bad for your knees. Make that make sense. Yeah. So if we look at overall runners versus non-runners, you know, runners tend to be healthier than non-runners. Ding ding ding. Yeah. So that group as a — oh, wait. I’m a

[30:02] non-runner. What? I — ding ding winner. No. Okay. So if you’re just looking at subgroups, they tend to have less knee pain than people who don’t move their bodies in that way. So now we can eliminate that knee pain in runners simply by increasing their cadence by 5 to 10%. Okay. So what’s cadence? Cadence is how many steps we take in a minute. So running quicker. Yes. Yeah. So oftentimes we find that if you’re running too slow, that means you’re having to absorb more

[30:33] forces into your body, and so you absorb more forces, then they’re going into you rather than you storing that energy and then releasing it. Is that because you’re spending more time on the ground? Yeah. Gotcha. So I want to — oh shoot, I’m sorry, I touched the microphone. Scott, don’t kick me out. But so, like, we want to just glide. Less time in contact with the ground means less impact. Exactly. So we decrease

[31:04] how high we go up. Every time we take a step we’re, you know, it’s like a little mini jump up and down. So we’re decreasing that and we’re going to decrease those braking forces. We also know that the tendon itself has this kind of magical resonance — you know, how much it vibrates. And so 180 steps per minute is kind of that sweet spot, the optimal kind of biomechanical component for that tendon. So the closer we get to that, the more we’re probably reducing our forces. When

[31:35] you said 180 steps a minute, that made me a little tired. I got a little sleepy. So that’s per — you know, the combination of both sides. I need to do better breathing. Yes, you got to start there. Start with breathing. But most people are hanging out at 160. Really? And that is — that’s way different when you’re at 160. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So 180 is about where people want to be. And so if I wanted to measure that myself, like if I’m going out to run, how do I — there’s a great little app called Run Tempo. That’s free. You just

[32:06] go to the app store. There’s probably a lot of other ones. And then what you want to do is just figure out where you’re starting at. You know, you can go from 160 to 180, but you can increase by 3 — okay, 3 to 5 is probably a sweet spot. Mm-hmm. And kind of trying to increase that coordination, but it comes back to kind of where you’re starting to go. It’s your time to stabilization, how much time you spend on the ground. So getting more precise with that foot strike pattern in order to increase that time to stabilization. What is the

[32:37] arm swing doing? Because arm swing is a great way to change the cadence. If you’re thinking about your feet, it can be very difficult. But if you’re thinking about the back portion of your arm swing, that’s what I try and get people to focus on. And I even have to practice that by getting the run tempo app, getting into a staggered stance, seeing which side they might feel less coordinated on, and then just swinging their arms to that tempo. So, they’re just standing in place, but they’re starting to practice that. And then I also get them to kind of start saying a mantra. So I start to have them say

[33:09] “quick, quick, light” in sequence with that run tempo, and it helps them start to then entrain their brain. And then when you go out and you’re actually telling your brain “quick, quick, light,” your brain is assessing, well, was that quick? Was that light? What do I need to do different? Because we always want to have that feed-forward corrective mechanism in place. Did you go from bad to better? Yeah, you know, and so giving them ways to tap into, oh yeah, that was better. I like your mantra because the first thing that came in my

[33:39] mind was like “too legit, too legit to quit.” And it’s like that might keep me running, but it’s not going to make me a better runner. No. Okay. Tell your brain what you want. You know, we like to say it’s a lazy piece of meat, the operating system. So tell it what you want, you know. So there. So 180 — that’s a good steps per minute is what I want. Start with the arms, and then Run Tempo is a good app to get and it helps with that. Yeah. Most people are not going to be right at 180, but you know, trying to

[34:09] get at least to 175. See, where were you when I did this half marathon? I could have called you. You would have said, “Listen, stand in one place. Fix your breathing first. Quick, quick, light. Move your arms and don’t run a freaking half marathon today, you dummy.” You could have told me all those things. Well, I always say you got to go slow to go fast. And if you take the time to create the foundation, and if you really are in this for the long run, then you’re going to run these little miles that you need to run. And some of those little miles are practicing your posture

[34:40] so you can stand strong, run strong, start strong. You know, you’re going to take your time to coordinate your breathing. So, and if you buy into “I got to go fast to go strong,” you’re going to get injured. So, so intriguing. How does a runner know if they’re overstriding or understriding? Yeah. So, ideally, we want to kind of look at — you know, again, I oftentimes just have them practice a little bit, like taking a normal walking stride and then seeing how quick can you

[35:10] get to time to stabilization. Okay. So giving them an idea, and what we’re kind of really looking at is: is there a gap between right and left? I’m always coaching them to look for gaps. Do you have a gap in mobility? Do you have a gap in stability? Do you have a gap in time to stabilization? It’s these gaps that are going to take you down. What was that last one? Stabilization. Stabilization. Time to stabilization. Time to stabilization. How quickly can you transfer all load to one leg and be perfectly still and stable? Ah, okay. Most runners, if you have them do a

[35:40] single-leg squat, they’re a hot mess. And you’re like, “How — how?” By “runners,” do you mean people? I’m always thinking, “How can you possibly run as many miles as you do and not be injured, or only partially injured?” It’s almost like they’re continuously falling and catching themselves rather than actually running. Right. Exactly. Wow. This is so intriguing. Like, I don’t love running, but I’m listening to

[36:10] you and I want to try this stuff out at night when nobody can — right? Kathy: Hopefully. Should ask Mandy. Why do we make everybody a better athlete? And the same principles apply no matter what you’re doing — being able to control, and running is so important. Like, okay, I’m going to call out my son, partially because my wife asked me to. She’s like, “You have to talk about what a terrible runner you used to be.” So, my wife is white. I’m Black. Okay. And so our kids are mixed, and because that’s how that works. Okay.

[36:41] Jason: Thanks. Yeah, that’s how it works. Thank you for that. That’s how it works if anybody was wondering. Okay. So, all my kids are athletes. My oldest son, he is like the slowest fast person you’ve ever met. Like, he’s late to everything, right? But he’s a really good athlete. And when he was younger, like, we’d see him playing basketball and stuff like that, and he would run — and I can’t adequately describe it — but he’d run and he’d do this weird thing with his arms down here, and I was like, that is not my people.

[37:12] My wife threatened to send him to get sprinting lessons. But now this kid is like lightning fast. So, he swings varsity for baseball and he’s in there running bases because he’s very, very fast. And so, she first of all wanted me to call him out publicly on this because punking your kids is fun. Yes. Um, but she also had a question about speed. Are people just born fast, or can you become fast?

[37:43] Because that kid was pretty slow and now people are like confused, like, “How’d you get so fast?” Because he had no training. So, what do you think about that? Are you born fast or slow? How can you develop that over time? Yeah, that’s a very good question. I mean — she’s a smart lady, my wife. So we do have slow-twitch fibers and fast-twitch fibers, and then we do have some that haven’t decided yet. Yeah. So we have those that can transfer either way depending on our training. So,

[38:14] depending on what type of training he got, that might have helped improve him. There’s also speed windows too, especially in rotational sports, where, you know, if you want to make a better athlete, you take advantage of those speed windows and put them into anything rotational that they can possibly do. Like, if you want them to be a golfer, put them in everything — hockey, tennis, everything. Gotcha. So when those speed windows close, then you know it doesn’t matter if the kid can hit the

[38:44] ball straight. If he can’t hit it far, you know, the kid who probably can hit it far but is a hot mess is going to be a better athlete. So kind of knowing how different systems mature can help you steer your child into the best sport or help them be more successful. So I think he was going to Helix training — speed training. I was just saying I was like, “Wait, he did get training because you trained him.” Yeah. Okay. This white lady here trained my son.

[39:16] Yeah. Well, you did great. Yeah. There’s a lot of — there’s a lot of coaches at CS that are just so happy that you got him during his — you called it a speed window. Certain places when we’re maturing that the — as we’re — so my speed window is shattered. It’s like closed. I’m done. I’m as fast as I’m going to be, which is great because I’m incredibly fast. Oh, if I was any faster, like speeding ticket, I drive. Yes. You mentioned

[39:46] shoes earlier, but is there — is there a way — because I know this is going to be a question — what’s the best way to pick a shoe for a runner? So, right now, you know, we have to be a little bit careful because the shoe industry goes through trend cycles and right now, you know, it’s all about cushion. Yeah. Cushion is the new sexy word. Your Hokas, your ultras, carbon plate is the new sexy, right? And so we really need to be careful about these, you know, shoe trends just because, you know, when we start to look at more

[40:17] cushioning, one of the things we know is most of the proprioceptors for the foot are right on the heel. And so you start to have more cushion with a shoe. One of the things they found was two things. They found that if you had a shoe that had — was higher in the back and lower in the front, so a bigger drop, those people were two times more likely to sustain a running injury. And they were also more sucky at knowing where their foot was at in space. So the proprioception was decreased. So those proprioceptors in our foot respond to

[40:48] vibration. And if you take away all that vibration, then that fascia system, which is, you know, connecting us from our head to toe, doesn’t get — right. Yeah. The thinking part doesn’t get the information. And so what then ends up happening is instead of the fascia taking more of the load, we end up having to have the muscle do more of the load because the fascia missed the bus. So now the muscle, which is a higher maintenance system, then has to do more of the work. Whereas if we are able to

[41:18] take advantage of that proprioception, then essentially what they kind of think is the muscles can more isometrically contract and modulate that force a little bit for us, and the force goes through the fascia. Okay. So, can you explain for people who have no clue what fascia is — what that is, just real quickly? Yeah, fascia is kind of that webbing that covers our muscles and just about everything, and it covers organs. It’s underneath your skin. It connects us from head to toe and it’s a very sophisticated system that allows us to know what’s going on a

[41:50] lot faster than our nervous system. In fact, the fascia reports information at 720 miles an hour — faster than the speed of sound. Whereas our nervous system is around 200 miles an hour. So it’s really the system that, you know, we want to have responsive because it’s going to get us out of, you know, hot situations, whereas the nervous system is like, hey, I tried. Should I call these first? The nervous system shows up like, what happened here?

[42:20] What happened? You’re late. What a mess. You’re late. You’re slow. What did I miss? Everything? So anyway, going back to the shoes — you know, we really have to begin by looking at, you know, somebody has a, you know, like a total knee or something, you know, maybe we do want to have more cushioning. Maybe that makes sense, but can we put something in the shoe? And one of the things I love is the Naboso insoles. So you have another proprioceptor in your foot that is able to sense, you know, what’s called two-point discrimination. So what that

[42:51] is — you know, your brain can tell that, oh yeah, there’s two points, not one point. So it’s a sophisticated little way of doing that. And see, these insoles have little bumps on them. So they really wake your feet up. So we are all of a sudden providing at least additional sensory information. If we’re taking away some sensory information, maybe we can offer something in return. And so, you know, those are some of the things we want to kind of look at. We want to make sure also with the shoes, you know, what’s happening in regards to, say, the toe spring. Does it spring?

[43:22] Okay. Right. One of the things we know about the foot is so much of the energy has to go through that forefoot. That forefoot takes about 60% of the body weight. And if you’re taking away the ability for that muscle system to function and work by giving it a free spring, it’s going to start to atrophy. Okay? And if you start to atrophy in that, you’re going to end up having all those push-off issues like plantar fasciitis, bunions, you know, posterior tibial tendinitis, all those things up the chain. So kind of going — how much do we

[43:54] need to correct for with the shoe? Can we level up their foot mechanics? Can we teach them what tripod is? You know, those sort of things. And then one of the other big things I love is — I look at what can we do outside of your running shoes? And so the research currently shows that getting somebody in more of a minimalistic shoe reduces falls, reduces falls at nursing homes, improves strength in middle-aged people. So, you know, I love a shoe called the Paluva. It’s by Mark Sisson,

[44:25] and it’s kind of a very much evolved kind of Vibram. It looks like a tennis shoe with all five toes, but it’s much more supportive. And so, trying to get, you know, like 3,000 steps a day in that shoe can really improve your foot biomechanics. Not necessarily running in it, because, you know, you can’t do that if you don’t have the foot strength. Sure. To — I’m learning there’s steps. There’s steps. You don’t just get out of bed and run a half. No, got to go from bad to better. That takes steps.

[44:55] I should have gone from bad to back to bed. Yeah, probably. Yeah, it might be time for a game. I think so. We’re running right up against it here. So, all right. I’m so excited for this game. I’m a little worried. I’m a little worried. I’m going to pit one physical therapist against another here. Okay, so we’re going to play like a true — trying to create friction. This is a running trivia game. Okay. Now, before — like she’s clearly an expert. You’re very, very good and I’m like

[45:26] nowhere near in the ballpark on this, but you’re going to be able to hang with this. So, given your background as a college basketball player, I got you. That’s your buzzer. Okay. That’s my buzzer. Okay. Yes. And given your affiliation with the, uh, the other school down south. Yes. Okay. Okay. So, you will buzz in. All right. And in this trivia game, here’s the main rule: you have to wait till I read the whole question. You’ll probably know the answer before then, but if you buzz in early, no good,

[45:56] You can’t answer. The other person automatically gets through. Okay, I know. Okay, it works. All right. Good. Good. Okay. So, I have these trivia questions. Wait until I finish. Okay. First person to buzz in gets to answer the question. Okay. Now, all of these questions have the word “run” in the answer. Oh, okay. So, if you give an answer and it doesn’t contain some form of the word “run,” okay, your answer is wrong. What is “run?” All right.

[46:28] We’re going to go with the first one here. Okay. Are you ready? Let’s start it out easy here. Okay. This popular rap group teamed up with the rock band Aerosmith to record the hit “Walk This Way.” Run DMC. That is correct. I think your buzzer didn’t work. One point for — Oh, did you try? Yeah. Mhm. Okay. Live and learn. Live and learn. You got to start with your diaphragm. That’s a good place to start. You should try some breathing first. I got to get the score here.

[46:58] So, that’s one point, Kathy. Okay. Very good. Let me put a little check mark next to this. Okay. How about this one? This 1993 hit by Soul Asylum was both a chart-topper and a public service announcement featuring real missing children in its music video. Soul Asylum — we’re looking for “Runaway Train.” Runaway Train, Never Coming Back. Okay. All right. Now I was getting it. All right. Here we go. Next one. You might say

[47:28] this to Tom Hanks if you saw him at an Alabama football game. Who — who’s that? Run. Oh, this is me. Yeah. Okay, go for it. Forrest, run. Very good. Run, Forrest, run. I’m not very good at this game. All right, here we go. Okay, Robin, we’re going to get you on the board right here. Get me on the board. If you have explosive diarrhea, you might tell people that you have this. What? The runs. Hey. Okay, Robin on the board. Thanks for that one. I got stuck on the visual. Okay.

[48:00] Oh, I’m sorry. OJ Simpson is famous for this. Running the football. Yes, he was a running back. We also would have accepted “running from the police.” I didn’t think that was appropriate. I thought of that one, but I’m like, I can’t say that. Okay, here we go. Next one. This ’90s dance move simulated a person rhythmically sprinting while standing in place. Running man. Okay, that’s — yeah, you got to tweet it up. There

[48:30] we go. Good. All right. All right. Good. All right. So, we got three to two. Here we go. Next one. This best-selling novel by Khaled Hosseini follows the story of Amir, a boy from Kabul, and explores themes of redemption, betrayal, and yes, kite flying. Oh, yeah. I remember that. But I can’t — it’s got the word “run” in it. I got — going, gone. Kite Runner. I never would have gotten that. Okay, here we go. This popular Christmas song

[49:00] is about a grandparent who was assaulted by an animal while walking home. Grandma and the reindeer song, right? There we go. We’ll give it to you. “Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer.” Okay. Okay. This poultry-themed claymation movie based on The Great Escape featured Mel Gibson doing the voice of the main character named Rocky. Poultry-themed claymation movie based on The Great Escape. Something — Chicken Run. That’s it.

[49:32] Chicken Run. You got Chicken Run. That’s the name of the movie. Is it really? Yeah. All right. We got a couple more. Here we go. Ready? So Kathy’s up by one. Okay. Don’t let her win, Rob. She’s not up by more. Run her down. Okay. Hitting a ball over the wall in the outfield in a baseball game will earn you one of these. Go ahead. Home run. Home run. That’s correct. Okay. Here we go. That was a half a second behind. Got three more questions. An inside gag maintained between friends or co-workers can also be called this.

[50:03] Inside gag. An inside gag maintained between friends or co-workers can also be called this. Running — oh, got it. Go ahead. Running joke. Running joke is correct. She gave me the — okay, we’re going to give Robin half a point on that. She invited me. I’m sorry. All right. Here we go. And people who suffer from rhinitis have this symptom. Runny nose. Runny nose is correct. All right. And this last one is worth 10 points. Okay. So it’s

[50:33] anybody’s game still. Amateur fashion stylists and designers compete to craft the best possible clothes on this show hosted by Heidi Klum. The runway. Runway Project. No — Project Runway. We’ll get that. We’ll get that to you. All right. So, Robin, you’re our big winner and thank you so much. I feel like we won. We won by having her here. Yeah. And for all the recreational runners out there who want her expertise. Yes. You go to her website which is Runners Rehab Fix or Robin Pester PT. Or Robin

[51:04] Pester PT. And we’ll put it all in the show notes, too. Yeah. She has a bunch of courses online for recreational runners that people can tap into. Yeah. And hopefully — keep your eyes on the comments on this. We would like you to listen to our podcast and I think if people want to ask questions or figure out how they connect with you, hopefully just leave it in the comments. We’ll see if we can get you connected with Robin. So, yeah, I love that. So, yeah, what a treat. I

[51:35] learned so much. I told you. Yeah. I learned that I’m not as smart as I thought I was. Neither of us. Neither of us are. They made you humble. Yeah. Right. And I think that I also learned that — because I don’t love running. It’s not really comfortable. But I think that with some of the things that you shared, it’s like you kind of gave me some keys as to how I could enjoy it more. And so, man, that was so helpful. Yeah, it’s great. What kind of takeaways did you get, Kathy? Well,

[52:06] Kathy: you know, I’ve taken like 10 notes. Okay. Nothing extra here. I just love her philosophy in that it’s a whole-body — running is a whole-body situation, right? We’re not just chugging our legs up and down. That is not how it works. It doesn’t work very well. No. Starts with breathing. Yes. And then you got to get your foot right. That’s

[52:36] where it starts too. But starts with the diaphragm — breathing. You got to have your foot right. Outstanding. All right. Well, thank you so much, Robin. We appreciate you. I enjoyed it. So fun. Great. Super fun. So, yeah. So, that’s it for us here on the PTCH Podcast today. I think there’s just one more piece that we got to cover, and that is that there’s no “I” in PTCH.

[53:08]