Torn ACL at 16: Reconstruction Surgery Tomorrow

[0:00] Jason: All right. So, there are some injuries where you don’t need an MRI to tell you that something went wrong.

Kathy: Yeah. If an athlete says, “I heard a pop,” everybody in the training room just quietly nods.

Jason: Yeah. So, today’s episode actually hits a little closer to home than usual. Our guest is my son, he tore his ACL, and tomorrow morning he’s going in for surgery.

Kathy: And before anyone turns this off thinking this is going to be heavy, don’t worry. He’s walking. He’s joking. He’s already asking when he can lift

[0:30] again.

Jason: Yeah. He’s also asking if this counts as leg day.

Kathy: It does not.

Jason: All right. So, today we’re talking about ACL tears. What surgery actually fixes, what it doesn’t, and why “you’ll be back” is both true and wildly incomplete.

Kathy: And we’re doing it with someone who’s living it in real time. Not 10 years removed with a highlight reel.

Jason: Oh, who could you be talking about, Kathy? All right. Okay. Let’s get into it. This is the PTCH. What happens when a chiropractor and a physical therapist get together to make a health and wellness podcast?

[1:01] Kathy: Chiropractors and physical therapists don’t like each other.

Jason: Oh, think again.

Kathy: I’m Dr. Kathy Lynch, physical therapist who likes to help people move and get stronger.

Jason: I’m Dr. Jason Young, an evidence-based chiropractor who uses humor just as much as adjustments to help people get better. Welcome to the PTCH Podcast.

Kathy: Remember, there’s no I in PTCH.

Jason: Welcome to the PTCH Podcast. I’m Dr. Jason Young.

Kathy: And I’m Dr. Kathy Lynch. And this is — who are you?

Guest: I’m the oldest son.

Kathy: Okay.

Guest: I’m Alustin. I’m Jason’s

[1:32] son.

Jason: Yeah. So, clearly he listens to the show because he knew the lore.

Kathy: The lore.

Jason: The lore. Oh, boy.

Kathy: He knows.

Jason: He knows. Yeah. So, welcome. Thank you for being on the podcast. Kind of a last-minute edition, so we’ll see how you do.

Kathy: We took a pivot. No pun intended.

Jason: Yeah. Geez. Oh, that’s — sorry. That was a bad dad joke. Not even a dad. Yeah. I don’t know. And a little earlier before we started, he was claiming that he’s

[2:02] taking over the podcast. So, this might be my last episode.

Guest: It’ll just be called the — the Patal — the Patal.

Jason: The Patal.

Guest: Yeah. The Patalston podcast because he’s replacing the ch.

Jason: All right. So, before we get into it, can we brag about the podcast a little bit? Let’s brag about the podcast. So, we hit a milestone. No, my milestone.

Kathy: Oh, today’s — today’s going to be a struggle. A struggle. No, a real

[2:33] struggle.

Jason: Nobody’s perfect.

Kathy: Nobody’s perfect.

Jason: Yeah, especially not me. Okay, we hit a milestone on YouTube. We hit 1,500 subscribers. That’s pretty good. And we’re not even one full year in yet.

Kathy: Almost.

Jason: The anniversary is actually coming up next month. We’re a few weeks away.

Kathy: We might have to do something big —

Jason: like — yeah. Get Raul a cupcake or something like that.

[3:03] Kathy: Yeah. Raul, you like vegan, gluten-free cupcakes? I don’t know.

Guest: Anything.

Jason: Cheap day.

Kathy: Okay. Yeah. So, you know, the PTCH Podcast first birthday party is coming up. I don’t know. I’m promising a party, but every episode’s a party.

Jason: That’s the truth.

Kathy: So, if you would like to be subscriber number 1,501, that’s great. Also check us out on Spotify. Like, where’s all of our Spotify subscribers?

Jason: Where is everybody?

[3:33] Yeah, come on. It’s like we’re turning into that — like that “I’ve got a YouTube channel” trope. I want to be the “I’ve got a podcast on Spotify” trope guy.

Kathy: Okay.

Jason: Nice. All right.

Kathy: Anyway. All right, son.

Guest: What are we talking about today?

Jason: All right, so talk us through it. The ACL tear. First of all, tell us about your sports. What do you do? Why does this

[4:03] matter? Like, break it down for us.

Guest: All right. So, I was a three-sport athlete. I play basketball, baseball, and football.

Jason: Wait, do you go to the best high school in town?

Guest: I do indeed. I go to Kellis High School.

Jason: Okay. Go Spartans.

Guest: Go Spartans.

Kathy: Go Spartans.

Guest: So this last — my junior year of football. We were headed down to Central for a must-win game if we wanted to make playoffs. At the time I was

[4:35] in like a mini position battle for quarterback. So I was out there at corner having fun. And then on one of the plays, I went and tried to punch the ball out and my opponent tackled me into my knee. And so I had to go out for that game. When I got checked out, they said sprained LCL, which sounded made up to me.

Jason: Well, really quickly, maybe we should pause and the professional here should let people know what is an LCL, Kathy.

Kathy: The LCL is the lateral

[5:07] collateral ligament.

Guest: Like, still made up.

Kathy: He’s like, whatever.

Jason: It’s the ligament on the outside of your knee.

Kathy: Right. It gives you some stability.

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy: Right. And we checked you out, right? We checked out your ACL. We checked out your MCL, your PCL, your LCL — all the CL’s. We got all the CL’s, all the meniscus and everything.

Jason: And Kathy, you were kind of in on this —

[5:37] like, what were we thinking diagnosis-wise at this point?

Kathy: I saw some definite instability, laterally, so side to side. When I checked out his knee, we were thinking also there might be a meniscus tear. But otherwise he was fully active in his offseason workouts, jumping, running, squatting, deadlifting, doing all the

[6:07] things.

Jason: Yeah. And that injury kind of did it for your football season.

Guest: Yeah.

Jason: Right.

Guest: Yeah. It was kind of week to week, but I never suited back up.

Jason: Yeah. So like it hurt, but it was still kind of serviceable, but just never really good enough. I mean, pretty dynamic athlete — like, what would you be classified as, a dual-threat quarterback?

Guest: Yeah, I like to think so.

Jason: Yeah. Okay. Are we talking Lamar Jackson? Are we talking Kyler Murray?

Guest: Well, I’m not too tall, so probably K. Okay.

[6:37] Kathy: Okay. So, yeah. So, mobile quarterback — and so if you were just a pocket passer or something like that, could have gotten in, maybe like thrown the ball, but just really to utilize the full skill set took the rest of football off. Okay. So, basketball season comes around — because three-sport athlete — and what was the decision not to play basketball? Come basketball season, it still wasn’t 100%. Especially towards the beginning of basketball season, and I

[7:08] don’t want to be the type of guy who like assumes that he’s on varsity. So, I said, I’m just going to take this time to recover, you know, hopefully get ready in time for baseball and football. And so, yeah, decided it was better to take it off and get healthy. So,

Jason: Yeah. Lots of creatine.

Kathy: Yeah.

Jason: So much creatine.

Kathy: So much. Yeah.

Jason: Do you have a favorite brand? I do. I’m not going to say their name until they promise to sponsor us, or at least be guests on the podcast.

[7:39] Kathy: Yeah. That would create such — — such an awesome opportunity if they would just

Jason: Yeah, create an email to me. Yes. And say that they would be on it. So

Kathy: they make great protein gummies.

Jason: They do protein gummies.

Kathy: Yes, they do. Yes. They’re quite, quite creative. I would agree. Yeah. So, yeah. So, decided to drop basketball season, which was a big deal because there is an award that you were after.

[8:09] What is it called? The Johnson Award? Is that what

Kathy: I don’t know.

Jason: For 12 seasons, CHS —

Kathy: You know, basketball is my first love.

Jason: And yeah, so it was a really big bummer, but

Kathy: yeah,

Jason: I decided that my knee was more important than one award. So,

Kathy: okay.

Jason: So, rehabbed it. Rehabbed it. And we deployed — we deployed all the tools.

Kathy: I know.

Jason: Extremely lucky. I got lots of resources and I used them all. So,

Kathy: yes. Mm-hm. And then, so you get to the point where it’s like, okay,

[8:39] basketball season, that one’s gone and it’s time to start training for the next sport, which is

Jason: baseball.

Kathy: Baseball. Boy, was I excited.

Jason: Yes.

Kathy: So,

Jason: what do you play in baseball?

Kathy: I’m an outfielder.

Jason: Okay.

Kathy: Fast. He’s fast.

Jason: Yes, he is. In fact, this is probably a good time to talk about what does your mom yell at every single game.

Kathy: She yells two things. She yells, “You’re super cute, bub.” Or, “You’re super cute, bub.”

Jason: Or she says, “You’re so fast.

[9:09] You’re so fast.”

Kathy: Yeah. So, okay, let’s put this — let’s put this on record. Mom doesn’t watch this, so you can say — you can say what you’re

Jason: really — she would disagree with you there. The only time she watches these is when we’re driving in the car together, like we’re going to Portland or something like that, and I put it on and I’m like, “Oh.” And she’s like, “Oh my gosh, you still have a podcast.”

Jason: Is that where you go?

Kathy: Wow. Yeah. Okay. So, how do you feel about that? Like, is it embarrassing? I think if my mom was yelling, “You’re

[9:40] super fast, Jason.” Which, let’s be real, she never would. Because she wasn’t a liar.

Kathy: And yeah, that’s what I was going to say. I’m faster than you

Jason: for both things. Yes.

Kathy: Hold up.

Jason: Now, how do you feel about that? Is it a little weird?

Kathy: I don’t know. She’s been doing it my entire life, so it’s a little — it’s a little embarrassing like for the first little bit, but then it’s like,

Jason: no one else’s mom is doing that, so

Kathy: Yeah.

[10:10] Jason: Well, the good thing about Mandy is she doesn’t just limit it to you. She she makes sure to tell the entire team that they’re super cute and super fast. Team mom.

Kathy: Team mom. Yes. The real thing.

Jason: All right. So, we’re back in baseball.

Kathy: And knee’s looking pretty strong. Would you agree?

Jason: Yeah. I was pretty — I was pretty happy with the progress.

Kathy: Yep.

Jason: If you had to grade it on a scale of 0% to 100%, where would you say your knee was at that point?

Kathy: I’d give it like a solid 85, 90.

[10:42] Jason: Okay.

Kathy: Okay.

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy: Yeah. Weren’t quite stealing bases, but could definitely do the drills. I know before that you were having some trouble planting whenever you swung. You were past that. Done hitting off a tee.

Jason: Yeah, I started moving into live a little bit.

Kathy: Okay. All right. So then take us — take us back to that fateful day. Also,

Jason: this is painful.

Kathy: Okay. So, what day was that? That was like —

Jason: It was January 8th.

Kathy: January. January 8th, 2026.

[11:14] Jason: It was a dark and stormy night. It actually was dark and it was — it was wet.

Kathy: Yes.

Jason: Which is important. This is an important piece of the story.

Kathy: Important detail. So I am — we just got done in the cages doing our warmup and everything. I think I hit a little bit before and then we’re headed out to the field. You know, ready to play some baseball. I was excited. And then we’re doing this drill where — because I’m an outfielder, we field ground balls a little differently. So, we’re doing a drill where we’re sprinting to our left and we’re trying

[11:44] to field and then turn quickly so we can throw. And on the very last rep to the left side, I’m going and then my — I plant to grab the ball, my foot slips, it straightens out, it pops, and I fall over it. So the coaches rush over and one of them had my dad’s phone number, so they called my dad and he’s like, “It’s probably just hyperextension, you know, so keep it moving.” I mean, yeah, kind of reminded me of Central, but I was like, “Whatever. It’s just

[12:14] sensitive.” So, I’ve been walking around a little bit and then eventually I head into the training room and they said I probably restrained my LCL. So that was kind of a bummer. Then I go see Kathy the next day because I had an appointment with her. So, that was really cool. Well, do you want to talk about what you thought?

Kathy: Yes. So this is the interesting part. He comes in, he’s really still pretty swollen and super,

[12:45] Pain. It was still pretty painful. So, at this point, we’re thinking, you know, maybe this is a bigger meniscus tear at this point because I do — I do all the ACL tests. You know, I check the medial collateral ligaments again. Still some laxity there, but none of the ACL tests are popping out positive to me. So — and the trainer was the same thing. So, she tested the ACL, I tested the ACL, you know, we go

[13:16] through all the orthopedics — and yeah, just kind of a little loosey-goosey, but I mean, initially my talk was, hey, probably not much to worry about. Maybe you reaggravated the knee — and you know, let’s just keep rehabbing it. Yeah, let’s get it calmed down. Um, yeah. So, that’s what we started doing and then he was back kind of walking. Yeah. Again. But yeah, I got to the point where I was hobbling around. Yeah. So, I was thinking I come back a couple months,

[13:46] maybe miss the start of baseball season, but oh well. And then I get an appointment at Beaver Sports Medicine. Yeah. First of all, like time out here. Beaver Sports Medicine. Those guys were awesome. They got them right in — and it felt kind of like we were cutting to the front of the line. Yes. Big, big thank you. Yes. Big shout out to them. Dr. Wobbig and Painter who was here on the show before and MB and all those folks. Yeah. They did a great job. Todd — Todd — Todd and imaging. So

[14:16] Todd and imaging. Got to love Todd. Yeah. So we get in there and what do they say? Well, the first appointment, oh, the first appointment they took an X-ray of the knee. Nothing’s broken. Just kind of talking to me about my knee. And they do some tests that everyone else had already done. So, I was like, whatever. And so we scheduled an MRI for just a little bit after that. The next morning. Yeah. Yeah. Next — really? Was it? Yeah. Wasn’t it next morning?

[14:46] And so yeah, I showed up for that. They have an open magnet MRI. So, I just kind of sat in there, not claustrophobic or anything, and took a little snooze. So this is a surgeon looked at your knee, the athletic trainer again looked at the knee, and both of them weren’t positive that there was an ACL tear at this point. Yeah, they’re both — Dr. Wobbig had some suspicions. He was like, “It feels a little bit.” And like everybody else is like, “Yeah,

[15:17] yeah.” But, you know, this is why orthopedic surgeons are the real deal. Like this guy — yeah. He knows what he’s doing. And so it was a good call to get the MRI. Yeah. What do we find? So my dad and Painter play a little phone tag trying to get some information out and my dad relays to me that my ACL is torn and not just a little bit either. That sucker’s torn.

[15:47] You did it 100%. You went all out, man. All the way. Yes. Does nothing halfway. Yeah. And then they said maybe a sprain in the MCL and then maybe a tear of the meniscus. So, yeah, that’s kind of a hard pill to swallow. Yeah. But, you know. Okay. So, this is a good time to kind of jump in. So, when I finally did get to talk to Painter, it was kind of cool. So, you can tell this is a guy with like decades of experience because the first

[16:17] thing that he wants to talk about is Austin’s mental state. More interested in how you’re going to feel about this than what’s going on with the knee. And so, that was cool. So, I don’t know — like how do you deal with something like this? Because an ACL injury — it’s — you, first of all, if you’re doing sports like baseball, football, basketball, soccer, where you’re pivoting, you’re starting, you’re stopping a lot. When you have a rupture of your ACL, repair is not

[16:47] optional. If you’re old and you’re just going to be running in a straight line, you know, maybe you could live without an ACL, but if you’re older and you’re going to be playing pickleball, you’re going to need an ACL. You’re going to want your ACL, right? So can you talk a little bit about this? Like what was this like for you emotionally, mentally? Because, let’s pretend that one day this podcast gets super famous and there’s a high school kid, maybe somebody who is going to be the quarterback who is going through this.

[17:18] Like, what was that like for you? And how are you doing? How are you getting through it? The first night was really hard. Yeah. It took a little bit to really realize that — so with the surgery it comes with a nine — like recommended like 9-month-ish time away from competition in sports. We’ll talk a little bit about why that is in a second. So that was hard. That meant no baseball for sure. I was really looking forward to baseball season. Probably no football. Hopefully

[17:50] come back for basketball and then senior basketball, senior baseball. So it was kind of hard, kind of like processing that. You know, I had like high goals for this year. Like one of my resolutions was to win a state championship in one of the two sports that I can’t play now. So that kind of sucks. But then I eventually reached a point where it was, you know, I can’t do anything about the repair. Like I can’t do anything to change the fact I tore it or the fact that I can’t participate in these. So now I guess I just got to

[18:22] do everything I can to make sure that, you know, I can get better and when I get better I’m better than I was. So yeah, been trying to focus on me as a person, not just me as an athlete, and been doing lots of prehab, trying to get that quad as strong as I can. Yes. So yeah — magic words — prehab. Quad. Quad. Oh — yeah. Yeah. Well and I really appreciate that. I probably cried more than you did.

[18:53] So, it’s not a fun thing to figure out. Oh, yeah. Geez, how do we tell you this? But I think that it’s really admirable the way that you’ve been dealing with it so far. And I mean, you’re not all the way down the road yet. I’m sure there’s going to be ups and downs, but I like that you’ve been looking into like how can I still be a leader and participate in everything. And that’s — I think that’s one of the reasons parents want their kids in sports, is because of those life lessons that it teaches. So thank —

[19:25] you for sharing all that. Yeah. Jason: Then the the night you told me — Kathy: I think maybe it was the morning that you found out and my heart just broke for him because I knew he was looking forward to baseball. I knew he was going to be starting quarterback in the fall and just knowing the timeline it just was going to take those two seasons from him, unfortunately. So, and when I’ve seen him since, like you’ve been pretty low-key about it and pretty even-keeled, which I know that those first couple days are rough when it happens.

[19:56] Jason: Yeah. And to tell a little story, you know, we’re going back to my glory days. Kathy: Yes. Let’s do it. Tell the story. Jason: So, welcome to the club. It’s not a club neither of you or I want to be in, but I did tear mine when I was a junior in college, too. It was January actually. Mine was January 19th. I still remember the day. Kathy: Bad month. Jason: Yeah. Really bad month. Yeah. I still remember the day. But I was devastated because this was the ’90s and back in the day ACLs were like almost a career ender.

[20:27] Kathy: Yeah. They were going to repair you with a chainsaw. Jason: Right. Get a little — get a little chain link going. Right. Exactly. Like they give you the — what is that? the — not the chloroform — the chloroform, and then you may or may not wake up with a lower leg. Kathy: Yes. We’ll see what happens. Jason: Yeah. Yeah. They told me I wasn’t going to play my senior year in college and I played division three so it wasn’t like I could redshirt. My dad wasn’t going to pay an extra year of college so I can play basketball.

[20:58] Kathy: Yeah. And this was at Nazareth. Jason: This was Nazareth. It’s now a university — was a college back in the day. Kathy: Very good. Jason: Yeah. What? Jesus. You do watch the show. Yeah. So, I feel for you. I was devastated, but you know, you’re going to make an epic comeback and have a great story to talk about. Jason: Yeah. The thing that’s been getting me through it is that I’ve been told that I can become faster and jump higher. Kathy: Yeah. Jason: Yeah. I like it. Kathy: It’s true. Yeah. And I think we’re going to talk about that a little bit. How

[21:28] successful ACL repairs are. In fact, so successful that I once read an article where there was a doctor who was talking about the idea of maybe athletes undergoing prophylactic ACL repairs because they come back stronger. Jason: That sounds awful. Kathy: Yeah. Nobody’s doing that. Jason: Yeah. How about we just — how about kids just — we rehab, we prehab, we strength train, we do neurocognitive training. Kathy: Yeah. Jason: Now, before the injury. Kathy: Totally. Yeah. Do everything you can to

[21:59] prevent it. And so I think, you know, coming up in the episode what we want to talk about are, like, what exactly is the injury? What are some of the causes of it? Who gets these types of injuries? And then, like, what does recovery look like? And kind of what are some of the best techniques, methods of prevention, recovery, and everything like that. So, you ask some questions.

[22:32] Kathy’s going to do the heavy lifting because she’s the smartest one here. I’m going to try not to get too emotional. But before we do that, how about if we take a quick break so that we can hear from a sponsor. Kathy: Let’s go. Jason: All right. We’re really selective about the tools that we recommend. Brain FM has really earned its spot. It’s functional music built with neuroscience in mind, designed to support focus, relaxation, creativity, or sleep depending upon what you need in that moment. Think of it like adjusting the lighting in your brain. Need deep focus?

[23:04] There’s a mode for that. Need to calm down? Covered. Need to shut things off at night? They got that, too. We use Brain FM while working, decompressing, and winding down at night. It’s simple, effective, and easy to stick with. This isn’t just stuff that you can stream through YouTube or Spotify. This is audio that’s been engineered using cutting-edge neuroscience, AI, and real composers. You can get a 30-day free trial at brainfm/ptchpodcast. Remember, there’s no I in PTCH. The

[23:35] link’s in the show notes, and signing up through our link for the free trial supports your favorite podcast. Brain FM — music for the brain. And we’re back. So, let’s get into it. Let’s talk a little bit about knees. What the ACL even is. We’re going to defer to Kathy as our expert here. Kathy: Expert witness. Jason: Yes. Our expert witness. And I recently, for some reason, have become

[24:05] very interested in ACLs. So, I’ll share a little bit about, you know, what I’ve been reading lately and kind of what our plan is for getting Alson’s knee back. And then I think that we should play a game after that. Kathy: Love it. Jason: Yes. I’ve got a special game for you, son. Kathy: I’m excited. It’s the best part of the episode. Jason: Yes, it is. Yeah, I know. You fast forward to the games. Okay. So, Kathy, what is an ACL? What does it even stand for? It stands for anterior

[24:38] cruciate ligament. Why cruciate, you ask? Jason: Cruciate? Doesn’t that mean cross? Kathy: Yes. Jason: Yes. Like Jesus on the cross, right? Kathy: So the Catholics invented the knee. Jason: Okay. Yes. Okay. Yes. We didn’t have them before that. Kathy: No. Okay. What do we have instead? Jason: Just straight bone to bone. Kathy: Straight bone to bone. Bone to bone. Yeah. He does watch. Holy crap. Yeah. Man, I’m glad we’re not playing PTCH Podcast

[25:09] trivia. Kathy: I know. ‘Cause he knows it. Jason: He’s going to dominate. Yeah. I think he knows the show a little better than I do. All right. Kathy: So, this little pesky ligament that we seem to have torn in our life — it crosses between the femur and the tibia. So, the femur is the big bone, your top leg bone, your thigh bone. Jason: Your thigh bone. It’s connected to the lower leg, your shin bone. Shin bone. And there’s two little — I think they’re like 22 to 25 mm long. These two

[25:42] Little ligaments connect the tibia and femur together, and they’re cruciate because they do cross one another, and the ACL crosses over the top of the PCL. So the posterior cruciate — it can be torn too, but less common.

Kathy: So anterior means front, posterior means back.

Jason: Yes.

Kathy: And you technically don’t need an ACL to walk. Why is that?

Jason: Because I’m amazing. I don’t need

[26:12] anything to walk.

Kathy: No, there’s that

Jason: too. Oh, you’re not talking about me specifically. Oh, gotcha.

Kathy: What does the ACL do? So it provides stability to the knee and it prevents what they call translation of the tibia anteriorly. So from front to back. So your shin bone translates forward and back, and the ACL prevents that translation usually.

Jason: So you’re saying that if I’m taking a step and I don’t have an ACL, that that bone on the bottom, the one that’s connected to my foot, that wants to slide

[26:43] forward.

Kathy: It wants to slide forward,

Jason: and the ACL helps

Kathy: pull that back so it all lines up.

Jason: Yes. Okay. Yeah. So if you have a strong enough quad — this is going to be the theme of your life.

Kathy: Yes.

Jason: Literally the rest of your life.

Kathy: Awesome.

Jason: You technically don’t need your ACL. In fact, this is apropos of the times. The Olympics are coming up.

Kathy: Yes.

Jason: And we just learned Lindsey Vonn, who

[27:14] has made a huge comeback —

Kathy: Incredible.

Jason: Incredible.

Kathy: — just tore her ACL again. I don’t know how many times she’s torn her ACL.

Jason: Seven at least.

Kathy: Yeah.

Jason: In fact, because I think that we talked about that with the surgeon, right?

Kathy: Yeah.

Jason: Yeah. And she is going to ski again.

Kathy: But if you have ever seen a picture of Lindsey Vonn, those quads —

Jason: Yeah. Yeah.

Kathy: Well, and I think, speaking of monster quads, shout out to Olson’s quads. Yes. I think that that’s actually

[27:44] why the trained professionals had such difficulty determining whether he had a tear or not.

Jason: Yep.

Kathy: Because his quads were doing a pretty good job

Jason: of stabilizing that.

Kathy: His hamstrings were pulling it back too.

Jason: Yeah. Impressive legs, son. Impressive legs. Shout out to Kathy. Shout out, Coach.

Kathy: Yes.

Jason: Yes. So yeah, that’s what the ACL does. We need it, but we don’t need it. We need it if you want to do any pivoting. You mentioned earlier, if we

[28:14] want to do pivot sports, if you want to play — you know, get back to playing football or basketball —

Kathy: or pickleball.

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy: We’ve got to satisfy the demographics.

Jason: Yes, we do. Although —

Kathy: Cricket. Yes. Yes. Right. Because for our folks in India —

Jason: Yes,

Kathy: definitely.

Jason: That was good. There is — not a resurgence, but actually a resurgence —

Kathy: Yes.

Jason: — of athletes rehabbing without the surgery.

Kathy: And so there are people who are

[28:45] attempting to play and are successful in getting back to high-level sports without having the surgery. And again, that relies on, you know, hardcore training, strength training. But people are playing without having the surgery. So not recommended at this time.

Jason: No.

Kathy: No. Well, and I think — I mean, so what would move you to a decision like that?

Jason: I mean, you probably remember what the surgeons told you in terms of why you would want to do

[29:16] a reconstruction. Don’t ever say ACL repair. I’ve learned —

Kathy: Yeah. Somebody will like slap your hand and say it’s a reconstruction.

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy: Okay, fine. Just fix it. Yeah. But do you remember like one of the reasons that they suggested a reconstruction for you rather than going without it on the spot?

Jason: Probably it has to do with something that you have that I don’t, and that is youth.

[29:48] Kathy: Oh yeah, I remember now.

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy: Because — oh, I remember it now. I remember it all. Welcome back.

Jason: All right. So there’s the cartilage on the top of the knee,

Kathy: and without the ACL, it can wear that down,

Jason: and so later down the road that could turn into what they call arthritis.

Kathy: Yes.

Jason: So, yeah. So taking care of it now prevents me from wearing down that cartilage, because eventually everyone’s cartilage will wear down, but repairing it now

[30:20] will prevent it from wearing down prematurely.

Kathy: Yes, very well said. Yeah, totally.

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy: Yeah. This guy does not want to be a doctor at all. No. No.

Jason: He listens.

Kathy: Mm-hm. He wants to be a podcaster.

Jason: All right. Well, here he is.

Kathy: Yes. This is where the big money is.

Jason: Yeah. So yeah, that’s pretty much what they said — somebody your age who has some sports ahead of them, this is going to give you the best long-term outcome. But once you get a little bit older, you’ve got some options.

[30:50] Kathy: You do have some options. Yeah. You don’t have to have the repair.

Jason: Yeah. Or you could just have perfect ACLs like me.

Kathy: Oh, I said repair. I meant reconstruction.

Jason: Oh my gosh. Yeah, caught myself.

Kathy: There are trainers across the country

Jason: and the country of India. Yeah, they just —

Kathy: She doesn’t know what —

Jason: They smashed their phones.

Kathy: Blasphemy.

Jason: Yeah. Reconstruct this.

Kathy: Okay. So, Kathy, let’s talk about — because now people are terrified of

[31:20] tearing their ACL. Who should be worried and how does it happen?

Kathy: Women should be worried.

Jason: Hey, ladies. Yeah. Are you listening, ladies?

Kathy: And this is another controversy. I could talk about this for hours and hours. Obviously, this is deeply personal to me because I went through it. But women actually — female athletes are five to eight times more likely to tear their ACL. And there’s a myriad of reasons and we really haven’t pinned down exactly why. I don’t want to go through them right now because again,

[31:51] it could be controversial when we talk about it. But yeah, people in pivoting-type sports, contact sports — although the ACL is torn in non-contact —

Jason: Yeah. So talk about that — does it take somebody hitting you in the knee to pop your ACL?

Kathy: No, it doesn’t.

Jason: Yeah.

Kathy: Yeah. And nobody was around me when I — I was going up for a layup. So I was going up for a right-hand layup.

[32:22] Yeah. I was going off my left foot and I just — I guess I hyperextended my knee, it popped. Kathy: Yeah. And Jody, if you’re watching, this is my teammate. Kathy: Uh-huh. Cuz I had the ball and I just chucked it. It was the worst pain I’d ever had in my life. Jody was coming behind me following, cuz she thought I was going to miss the layup, right? Back dunk. Yeah. Back dunk. Yeah. And all I hear is — you know, Jody. Yeah. I chucked it. SHE’S LIKE, “WHAT ARE YOU DOING?” AND so — I’m carrying my ACL. Leave me alone.

[32:52] So she’s not listening. Yeah. Right. Anyway, so yeah, both mine and Alston’s were non-contact injuries. So yeah, the very first — oh. Oh, here we go. Yeah. Can’t leave you hanging. Yeah. The very first like real-time ACL tear I ever saw was — girls, I think it was the 4A state basketball tournament. Girl went down, she shot a three-pointer, she made the three-pointer, she turned to

[33:22] start jogging back up the court, then she laid down on the court for a little bit. I’m done here. Cried for a while. Got carried off. And I was like, whoa, what just happened? I was looking for snipers. Yeah. I was like — did she get hit? But no, it’s crazy. And so the turf monster or the court monster — it can come get you. So let’s go back to — because we alluded to the dark and stormy night and you talked about that the field was a

[33:52] little wet. So what does that have to do with ACL tears — like does that increase risk, or does surface matter? Surface — do you remember those rubber basketball courts? Oh gosh. Yes, those things. And the AstroTurf back in the day. AstroTurf when it first came out — when it first came out it was basically like fake grass on concrete. Yeah. If you looked at the AstroTurf too long, you know. Yeah. Those suckers just popping. Or

[34:22] you know, I’ve played a fair amount of church basketball in my life. This is going to be our best episode ever. Oh, okay. Great. Showed up to church basketball. What? Let me see — which one of us could actually play church basketball right now? I would — I could do better than you. Okay. All right. Let’s run it right now. Hey, Raul, I think there’s a problem with Alston’s microphone. Maybe turn it off for a little bit. Let it cool down. Thanks. Okay. Overheating. Anyhow, one of the courts that I used

[34:54] to play on — it was freaking carpet. Like, dude — yes. Is it the Zion school one? What’s that? The one at Zion. No, no, no. Basketball trains there and it’s carpet. Oh, are you serious? Oh, man. Yeah. It’s just like the liability, right? They should be illegal. Yeah. I mean — miracles. Yeah, miracles. It’s cuz you’re playing church basketball. True. This guy’s got all the puns. I love — he does. I know. I think we got to have

[35:24] Alston on more often. Shoot. You should learn some things about health and wellness so that we can have you on more often. I mean, I’ve learned more about my knee in the past couple weeks than any other body part I ever wanted to know. Totally. Well, we’re going to have to have him on post-op. Yeah. Well, I’m just going to suggest though that if you just want to be on the PTCH Podcast, stop sacrificing pieces of your body for it. And yeah, we’ll just have you on because maybe you’re interesting. You want to do an episode on like — I mean, name it. I got you.

[35:56] We should have — we should — yeah, we should have him on for one of our perimenopause episodes. Yes, let’s do it. Oh. His mic doesn’t work. There’s a line. His mic doesn’t work all of a sudden. All right. Okay. So, back to the ACL. Back to the ACL. Okay. So, there are a few different types of repairs. You were offered a couple of options and you chose one, right? What were the options that you were given? Why did you choose what you chose? Okay. So, I was offered patellar,

[36:27] hamstring, and quad. Can you explain the difference between them? For a second. Wow. All right. So, the patellar is probably the most common one. That’s what I got. Kathy: Mhm. So they take a tendon out of the front part of your knee and they use that to reconstruct your ACL. Some downsides are that they put a screw in it, so you can have pain with kneeling and stuff like that, but it’s really well tested — like,

[36:57] it works. And then there’s the hamstring. Hamstring is like — it’s a good one too. You don’t have that kneeling pain. I’ve heard from people who’ve gotten the hamstring that it hurts really bad. But like, cosmetically it’s pretty nice. Everything. I don’t think any of these feel great. No. I didn’t hear anything about the quad. So — okay. Yeah, I’ve heard the quad is no pain. Okay, you can tell us on Friday.

[37:29] So, yeah — between the options, I would choose the hamstring, but I heard that you lose some strength in your hamstring, which I was really interested in. I think it’s a 10% reduction. Yeah, that’s a lot. That’s a lot of percentage. And then there’s the quad, which I’m going with. The quad is relatively new — well, new compared to the other two. It’s a resurgence of it for sure. So — not too — so, they’re

[37:59] going to take — oh, I should explain. Yeah. The hamstring — you have two things that connect to your knee. Kathy: Mhm. And so they just harvest — which is a weird word to use, to be honest — but they harvest part of your hamstring and use that. The quad — is it one or two? Might just be one. Quad tendon. Yeah. I think — if I remember, it’s two, like two kind of little pieces of tendon. Yeah. So I’m doing that. Yeah. He’s like, whatever. That’s what

[38:30] So they’re going to use that to reconstruct. And I mean, I’ve heard it’s relatively similar to the hamstring in the fact that like I can kneel and everything. Recovery time is around the same. But I don’t get that hamstring strength reduction. They’re also going to do — I don’t know what it’s called — but they’re going to take something out of my IT band and help it to stabilize. Kathy: Oh, yeah. I can’t remember the name of that. It’s the lateral something or other, but yeah, keep going. So they’re going to do that.

[39:01] And then while they’re in there, take a little look at my meniscus as well. Going to repair that if it needs to be. And yeah, that’s the moves. Jason: Okay, good. Man, that’s a good synopsis. This kid pays attention. Kathy: He does pay attention. Jason: Yes. Kathy: Yeah. I didn’t get an option. Jason: No, they just said, “You’re doing the patellar tendon.” I said, “Okay, here we go.” Kathy: Well, and I guess there’s also an option for cadavers. A cadaver tendon. Jason: Yes. Yeah. Kathy: But they tend not to offer that to younger people — higher failure rate.

[39:33] I think one of the things that’s interesting is whichever option you choose, they all have similar 12-month outcomes in terms of people being back to being able to perform their sports, as long as they’re, you know, committed to the rehab. There is a little bit of luck involved. There’s some people where the repair just doesn’t go well, maybe for genetics or how you heal or whatever it is. So it wouldn’t be your fault. It would not be my fault if yours doesn’t — like, I don’t know personally, because I come

[40:05] from a long line — I don’t know of anybody in our family line who has ever Jason: torn an ACL until now. Maybe this is on mom’s side. Kathy: Whoa. Jason: Yeah. I don’t know anybody on mom’s side that’s torn. Kathy: I haven’t really asked. Jason: I don’t know. You’re a trailblazer. Look at you. Fortunately for you, not a Portland Trail Blazer. You’re actually good at basketball. So — Kathy: Oh, I’m not — whoa. I know. I love the Blazers. Jason: Listen, listen. Like if I could just get paid

[40:36] to miss free throws like they do. Oh jeez. Like I would do it for so cheap. You just pay me $5,000. I’ll go miss all the free throws you want. Kathy: No, there’s talks of Giannis coming, which would not help that problem. Jason: Well, that’s true, but boy, our win problem. Kathy: That’s true. That’s true. This is like around trade deadline time. Like I heard Chris Paul is heading to the Raptors and Jason: still playing — Kathy: yeah, some other stuff. And oh, AD’s moving — Jason: AD. Yeah, he’s going to — is it the Wizards? Kathy: Wizards,

[41:06] for a lot of picks. Jason: Yeah. And just as a side note, I saw some nonsense that says that AD is better than David Robinson. This is obviously nonsense from somebody who is not very old, who does not understand the Admiral and his complete dominance. Absolutely. Kathy: AI. Jason: Yeah, it is AI, right? Totally. Kathy: It’s Russian bots on Elon Musk’s Twitter. Jason: He’s probably coming to rant with his Kathy: probably his alter ego. Yes. Jason: Oh my gosh. Exactly. All right. So,

[41:38] okay. So the repair happens. Kathy, where do we go from there? Kathy: What to expect? Jason: Yes. Kathy: Day one, day two. Day one, you’ll be feeling pretty good. Jason: Yeah. Kathy: Because you’ll still kind of have the anesthesia. You’ll be feeling pretty good. You watch shows like Dazed and Confused, Friday, Next Friday. You know, those are the reasons you’re going to feel okay. Jason: I do need like a trippy movie list. Kathy: That’s right. Los Drugs. Jason: Try out Inception. Kathy: Maybe. Yes, Inception. Maybe that’s when

[42:08] you watch Donnie Darko for the first time. Who knows? Jason: Bill and Ted’s — or was it Bill and Ted’s? Kathy: Oh, Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure. Yes. Jason: That makes a ton of sense, right? Like I understand this. Okay. I can write another one. Kathy: Right? Jason: I get it. Kathy: Yeah. Day two is when the work starts. Jason: Oh, snap. Kathy: Yes, we’re back. Day two, you’re going to wake up and your leg’s going to feel humongous because it’s going to be swollen. It’s going to be stiff. It’s not going to feel great. Jason: They’re already humongous. Kathy: Well, they’re already big. It’s going to be like three times bigger.

[42:40] So that’s not going to be a fun feeling. Depending on whether they repair your meniscus or not will depend on whether you’re in an extension brace. So if they repair the meniscus, usually they want you in an extension brace for six weeks and you’re not weightbearing, which is super. And Jason: that will be the case with you, right? Kathy: Okay. Because Dr. McRome, who’s doing the surgery — Jason: yes — Kathy: he said with the younger guy, if he sees meniscus damage, if he sees a tear, he’s going to repair it because outcomes are

[43:10] better. So Jason: yep. They cleaned out mine and I probably wish they would have repaired. Kathy: Yeah, now that I’m 53. Jason: Yeah. Anyhow, so day two is when we start our quad sets. Kathy: Okay. Maybe we don’t hook up the NMES yet. Jason: Mm-hmm. Why not? Kathy: I got a little ahead of myself, but we got to get Jason: we got to get it going, because the most important thing you want to get back

[43:40] early is your knee extension. You want to get that to zero. You want that leg straight, or if you have hyperextension, you want to get symmetrical hyperextension to the other leg. I didn’t — this has become a therapy session for me — but I didn’t get full — I didn’t get symmetrical hyperextension. Kathy: I have zero. I got to zero extension, but I never got to — anyway, Jason: you know what, I regret — 90? It was wild. Kathy: You know what I regret now? I regret that we didn’t have Raul cue up some

[44:10] sort of violin music or something. I feel like there’s a few times we could have played this, you know, when Olson’s talking about me playing church basketball, when you’re reminiscing about basketball, all those kinds of things. Yeah. Ah, Anyhow. Um, yeah. So, that’s when the work begins is day two. Um, and actually, you know, things progress better and better after the surgery. Yeah. Well, can I jump in here because you know I’ve been hitting the research machine

[44:43] looking at the papers and just looking at the literature — which I learned on TikTok that when somebody says what the literature says, they’re about to make up a fact. So Whoa, whoa, whoa. That’s what somebody told me after I told them what the literature said and they didn’t like it. Um, anywho, so yeah, I’ve been — we’re in a fortunate situation where you’ve got more resources than the average kid, right, and

[45:13] so I’ve been looking for all the weird stuff that we could do to you — I mean for you, for you, of course, son, for you. Um, like one of the early things that we’re going to start is some neurocognitive training. So, yeah. Yes. Yes. So neurocognitive training — it’s using things where you’re training physical response from outside stimulus. So like Blazepods. The one that we’re using is called

[45:43] Rocks Pro. Yeah. Rocks Pro. The Rocks Pro X. But it’s things where it’s like using your body to make decisions — hit the blue button, hit the red button, you know, those kinds of things — or it has numbers that pop up and it’s like hit the numbers in descending order. And you can even start that fairly early before you can even bear weight, because training the other parts of your body also helps to train — like it’s not like your brain is like, “Forget you, left leg, you’re not a

[46:13] part of this” — you know, it’s also training those neurological pathways. So we’re going to get you started early with the neurocognitive training, which will be kind of fun. Can I play Bop It instead? Sure. Yeah. Um, I don’t know that there’s any research on Bop It. And it’s not going to be the same thing if you’re playing like Xbox. Sorry, this is not enough. That’s not neurocognitive. That’s a lot of thinking. No, it’s just — yeah. So, um, but neurocognitive is like big body

[46:44] movements and everything like that. So I think that’ll be really helpful. Um, and so that takes us through — and then working a lot with the trainer at school to try and help decrease the swelling, get range of motion, things like that. Yeah. So, first six weeks — really, really, really important. The term in the industry is called “quiet the knee.” Yes. Got to get the knee quiet. And that basically is: let’s reduce the swelling, reduce as much pain as possible, but

[47:14] also walking this fine line between keeping it as pain-free as possible, but also getting range of motion back immediately. And that is — especially extension — in my mind, extension. I like to really focus on extension right away. If you have a meniscus repair, a lot of surgeons want you to restrict flexion range of motion to about 90 degrees. Again, it depends on the surgeon. Just because,

[47:45] depending on whether the meniscus — is it a root repair, is it not a root repair? Because if you force it into flexion, you can kind of damage the root repair. So, flexion will come, and I’ve found in the people I’ve rehabbed that flexion eventually comes. So extension is the one that we want to get back as soon as possible. So four to six weeks — or first six weeks — just trying to quiet the knee down and then trying to get range of motion back as much as possible. And then, you know, we’re firing on all quads, all four

[48:18] of the muscles, the first six weeks too, because you’re probably going to be non-weight-bearing if he repairs that meniscus. So we will really be working on getting that quad going. And then we’ll also be working on hip muscles — MB will likely be working on your hip muscles — because those will atrophy as well. And those are really important when you want to get back to running. So that’s first six weeks. And then, we are going to get in the pool and you’re going to be

[48:48] doing some walking in the pool. There’s a lot of really good research that shows that you get back some hamstring and quad strength — superior recovery there if you’re working in the pool. Um, pickleball players. Yes, exactly. With all the pickleball players, get in the old people soup, start walking your laps in the pool. Um, we’re also going to do a course of shockwave therapy. So radial shockwave therapy. We’re going to do four weeks of that, three treatments a week, working around that. What’s been shown

[49:18] from a research standpoint — the literature says — that people who do that get back to a full range of motion quicker and you also get significant pain reduction from doing that. So we’re going to be working the radial shockwave therapy, and all the while still doing the neurocognitive training and everything like that. Um, when do we get back to like the good stuff — the running, the weights, all that kind of stuff?

[49:48] Well, that’s where the testing kind of comes in. So they used to say, “Oh, you can run in three months,” and there wasn’t a lot — back in my day, they didn’t — actually, they did. I did the Biodex testing, and that basically tests your quad strength and your hamstring strength. And they test it compared to your non-involved leg, and they want a certain percentage — depending on the surgeon — at least 80% limb

[50:20] symmetry index. So you want your surgical leg strength to be at least 80–85% of the non-surgical leg strength before you’re doing any kind of running. So that will just — you know, based on that timeline — generally not running before three months, but also we’ll get you tested at three months to see what your strength is then, and then we’ll go from there. Yeah. And then the strength and the pain tolerance and the swelling — all those things factor in. But one of the most

[50:52] important things whenever it comes to being able to return to play, being able to return to your full activities is a process called ligamentization. Kathy: And that is probably the main limiting factor in terms of being able to get back 100%. And like you mentioned, they’re taking some quad tendon. Quad tendons are not the same as ligaments. They’re very similar, but they’re not the same. And we’re taking a tendon and we’re replacing a ligament using that

[51:23] tendon. And so there’s a process called ligamentization, which is where we’re waiting for the grafts to heal. The grafts are where you attach that tendon at each end. So we’re waiting for those to heal and for that tendon to start behaving like a ligament. So the minimum amount of time for that is around eight months. Jason: Yeah. 8 to — to one year. Kathy: Yeah. So, and it’s different for different people. Again, this is where a little

[51:54] bit of luck comes in in terms of how your body decides to adapt to that. But I don’t know. Do you remember what Dr. McCrum said in terms of your percentage chance based on when you come back? So after 6 months, how much do you decrease your percentage chance of reinjury if you wait a month? Jason: Uh, it was like 5%. Kathy: 15. Jason: Yeah. Kathy: So if you try and get back to sports at 6 months, I think it’s like a 30

[52:26] or it’s like a 30 to 50% chance that you could reinjure. If you wait till the seventh month you decrease that by 15% — not 15 cents. Jason: Depends. Yeah. And then, you know, each month you get a better shot of not reinjuring until, when — like you’re at about a year or so, if you’ve got the full range of motion, you got back to that reasonable side-to-side strength,

[52:56] it’s really pretty solid. They say that it’s stronger than a natural ACL. Jason: I hope so. Kathy: Yeah. And generally around five to — well, five to six months is the danger period because your rehab is going to go so good. You’re going to be feeling so good. You’re going to be tempted to be like, why can’t I just try this? It feels real good. You’re not going to have a lot of pain. You’re going to feel super strong. And the exact point your dad

[53:27] just made is that ligament just isn’t ready for a lot of the pivoting, a lot of the counter jump, those kind of things. And so — Kathy: well, and the other thing that happens besides just reinjuring that ligament is the other structures in the knee are at risk. And so when you have a chance of reinjury, we’re also talking about the risk of tearing a meniscus, injuring the ACL or meniscus on the other knee. Jason: Mhm. And so, it sucks, but it’s a good

[53:58] process to just be patient in. And if you are patient, you can have a really good outcome. Most people who have ACL surgeries have really good outcomes. Look at Kathy. Look how successful she is. Kathy: Look at me now. Jason: Yeah. Look at her. Just Kathy: take a look at me. Jason: Yeah. If you’re just listening to this in your car, pull over, turn on the video, look at Kathy. Look at her. She’s wonderful. Kathy: Yeah. Jason: Look at this. Look at me now. Well, do we have anything else to add? Kathy: We could talk — I could talk for hours about this. You know what? Maybe maybe

[54:29] we have them in for like a post-op check-in two months. Okay. Jason: See how rehab’s going. Kathy: Yeah, we could do a few of these. This is part one. Jason: Oh, yes. Kathy: This is part one. We might have to set up like a little thing where you can like rest your leg on it or something. Jason: Yeah. Or maybe this is good. Like — I just thought of great bonus content. Kathy: Oh, Jason: I’ll take some video of him. Hi. Ah, you’re going to have to pay for that. Kathy: Like the wisdom teeth videos. Yeah. Mhm. Jason: No, we will not do that to you. Why?

[55:02] Because you’re so cute, bub. Jason: Thank you. Kathy: Yes. Jason: You’re super fast. Kathy: You’re super fast. Jason: Nice little callback there. I see it. Kathy: Yes. You like that? Jason: Is it time for a game? Kathy: It is time for a game. I got to find the game though. What happened to it? Jason: I won it. I beat it. Kathy: It’s done. He’s a winner. Maybe I got to find it on my phone. All right. Oh, I grabbed my phone and I just got a message from somebody that said that they are praying for you.

[55:33] Jason: Oh. Kathy: Oh, you know what? This is your baseball coach. That’s who it is. Jason: He says, thinking about you as you head into tomorrow. We’ll be praying and pulling for you. So, great coaches there at CHS. Kathy: Is that Daisy? Jason: That is Coach Daisy. Good old Eric Daisy. Yeah. Okay. Kathy: Anyhow, let’s find this game. Oh, yes. Jason: Okay. We’re going to play a game that I call left, right, or both. All right. We’re going to see the elite ranks that you’ve entered,

[56:04] having torn your ACL. I have high-level athletes who have torn their ACL and have gone on to in some cases become Hall of Famers or maybe the greatest of all time at what they do. Okay. Jason: So, I’m going to tell you that athlete’s name, when they tore their ACL, and you’re going to tell me, did they tear their left one, their right one, or did they tear both? Ready? All right. Here we go. The first one, Adrian Peterson, running back. You know

[56:35] who he is? Yeah. Okay. I’m just — I can’t — bro, I can’t remember how old you are sometimes. What? Jason: Yeah. He tore his ACL when you were two. Okay. And you probably still knew who he was. Okay. No, I just know who — how do you not know who Adrian Pet is? Okay. All right. So, left ACL. I play the Madden — that is Madden. Jason: Left, right, or both? I’m going to go with both. Jason: He tore his left ACL. Yep. 2011 it was an ACL and an MCL, but

[57:09] he returned to win the 2012 NFL MVP. Jason: So good. MVP next year. MVP next year. Okay. Derrick Rose. Oh, I know this. Jason: Left or right? Left, right, or both? He got his right. Jason: That was also his left. Another left ACL, torn in the 2012 NBA playoffs. Okay. Yeah, I remember. I’ve seen the clip everywhere. Jason: Yes. What about Klay Thompson?

[57:40] Jason: Oh, man. Kathy: This was recent. Jason: At 2019 NBA Finals, game six. His right — or also his left ACL. And then he had an Achilles rupture later in the right leg. Kathy: Yeah. Oh, that’s what it was. I remember him hobbling off. Jason: That’s right. Kathy: All right. Saquon Barkley. Left, right, or both? Jason: You know what? I’m gonna say left. Kathy: This is actually the right.

[58:11] Torn in week two of the 2020 season. And did he come back? Jason: Yes. Kathy: Yes, he came all the way back. Very good. Frank Gore. Do you know who Frank Gore is? Jason: Yes, I know who Frank Gore is. Kathy: What team did he play for? Jason: Niners. Kathy: All right. Good man. Okay. I’m just checking. Jason: What? Hi. What college did he go to? Kathy: Okay. Jason: University of Miami. Okay. Go ahead. Kathy: Oh, I might have known that actually. Right.

[58:41] Right. Opposite of left. Kathy: Both. It was both. He tore his right one in 2001 and his left one in 2002. And that’s a case where he probably tore his left one because he came back a little too soon on his right one. Jason: But then he went on to play just 16 NFL seasons. What about the greatest quarterback of all time?

[59:11] Jason: No. See, now listen — listen. If I could only choose one quarterback, if I could only choose one quarterback, it’s Joe Montana. Kathy: Oh, okay. Jason: Yeah. Absolutely my favorite quarterback of all time. But Kathy: Steve Young is right up there, too. I’ve got a great picture — well, that will make it into the premium content — of me and Steve Young. He’s wearing a green R2-D2 shirt. Okay. Jason: But yeah, Joe Montana is my favorite of all time. But Tom Brady is the greatest NFL quarterback of all time.

[59:41] Not even — he won eight or nine. Kathy: Yeah, nine. Jason: Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers? Kathy: Two too many championships. Aaron Rodgers. Jason: Aaron Rodgers? Not even close. Kathy: Aaron Rodgers. Jason: That’s crazy. Kathy: It is crazy. Jason: Why would you say that’s not crazy? Aaron Rodgers is insane. Kathy: Okay. Aaron Rodgers is insane. His dad was a chiropractor. That’s most of the reason. That’s most of the reason. But yeah. No. Very good quarterback, but he’s not Tom Brady. Jason: I don’t know, man. Kathy: Look, so Tom Brady —

[60:12] doesn’t have the stats, but like if you look at him play — Jason: Mm-hmm. Kathy: He doesn’t have the stats. He doesn’t have the rings. Yeah, you know. Jason: Yeah. Kathy: Okay. Anyhow, he had a nice mustache at one point. Jason: Yeah. He didn’t get the COVID vaccine. So, all right. Tom Brady tore his ACL. Which one did he tear? Kathy: It’s got to be the right. Jason: He tore the left one. Kathy: Yes. 2008, week one of the season. Also tore his MCL in the same play. It was a non-contact planted leg. Jason: Oh, wait. That actually makes sense.

[60:42] Kathy: Yes. And what did he come back to do afterwards? Well, just everything. Jason: Yeah. Kathy: 2008. Jason: He won a bunch. Kathy: Yeah. He just like lost count after that. Jason: So, first of all, what do we — there’s a pattern that we see here. Lots of left ACL tears. Why do you think that is? Kathy: I think it’s because of the foot you plant on. Jason: Yeah. These are right-handed athletes, right? And so, which ACL did you tear? Kathy: My left one. Jason: The left one, right? Right-handed athletes. So, Kathy: very interesting. Jason: Yeah. Yeah. So, there’s definitely some

[61:13] patterns to it. But I think I just throw this out there — these guys all had it. Kathy had it. You’re destined for greatness. Kathy: Greatness, right? Jason: MVP. Super Bowls. Kathy: Nice. Jason: Tell me one thing that anybody ever did that was great who had two like natural ACLs. It’s very, very rare. Very rare. Kathy: Losers. Jason: I mean, he has the ankle thing. Kathy: Yeah, ankle thing. Jason: What about like Michael Jordan? Have you ever heard of him? Kathy: Never heard of that guy. Just kidding. He seems like he’s pretty

[61:44] Jason: also the greatest of all time. No doubt. Absolutely. We’re not going to have the argument about LeBron and Michael because it’s different universes and LeBron played for way too long. Kathy: It’s like Babe Ruth and like — Jason: Shohei. Well, I think Shohei’s better, but Kathy: I like Shohei better. Yeah. Jason: Yeah. But like, never mind. Kathy: Okay. Jason: Yeah. Kathy: Well, take-homes. Jason: Take-homes. Kathy: Yes. What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. Jason: Okay. That’s very nihilistic. Yeah. Very good. Kathy went Nietzsche on us. Yeah. Kathy: Mm-hmm. Jason: That was Kelly Clarkson. Oh, Kelly

[62:14] Clarkson, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nietzsche borrowed it from Kelly Clarkson. I forgot. Yeah. Kathy: I’ll go next. I think in researching for this, I pretty much just said it. You’re in really good company and you’re going to be fine. And so whether it’s you or somebody else out there who’s dealing with an ACL tear, you’re going to be fine. Your leg’s going to work again, and your life is going to go on

[62:45] and you can be the best at what you do even though you have an ACL tear. Jason: And we’ll give you the final take-home, young man. I would say, you know, your ACL doesn’t define you. So, especially if you’re an athlete. Kathy: Yeah. Jason: Doesn’t mean that you have to stop being involved with your sport. Your new sport is rehab. Kathy: That’s hard. And Jason: Yeah. All right. Good. Sport is rehab. Yes. There’s one more very important thing. If you want,

[63:15] you can say it with us. There’s no “I” in PTCH.