Why Olympians Trust This Massage Therapist - Don Butzner, LMT

[6:06] chiropractor. Yeah. So Don, let’s talk about how you made the jump from massage therapist to getting in with the elite of the elite of track and field. Yeah. So, um once I was done with my schooling, I um I worked for years doing like outcall massage for a hotel. And I hated it but it was experience and I was also the team massage therapist for Southern Oregon University at the time. And um it’s an NAIA school so they are going out there and competing and so that was really good experience. And from there I then got a chance to

[6:36] um work with the Nike Prefontaine Classic. And that’s kind of where, you know, that’s where it all started. Like my career in track and field all kind of started. Because when you have a good meet, like when you do well, and you make friends in the sport and stuff and just like all sports, networking is huge. So um I just kind of just kept working doing well, you know, not saying anything stupid or whatever and it just kind of kept going from there. Got more and more events.

[7:06] Uh and then I, I got invited to, uh, to try out for the, uh, the USATF sports medicine team, that’s the US Track and Field. And um so I went to the, uh, I think the first one I did was the 2013 outdoor championships in, in, in Des Moines. Yeah. And uh, made the team and then just kind of um kept doing, kept doing events and um eventually got into some big ones. And then um got selected for the 2016 Olympic Games in Rio, which was incredible. >> That’s amazing. So with the USATF, like when someone says “made the team,”

[7:36] what does that process look like to make the USATF sports medicine team? Yeah, so you apply. I think I applied twice actually, the first time I didn’t get it. And um so you apply, they look over your resume, they have a committee that reviews it and you’re either in or you’re not. Um, and so that’s it. I got in, I went, I did well, I kept going back. Made some good connections there again and just kept going from there. Yeah, it’s interesting. I would imagine too, like doing sports, like

[8:07] these being sports medicine practitioners and you have athletes coming to you and at the top of their game and they’re super stressed out and performance is everything, you can’t just have someone who doesn’t work well under that pressure. Yeah. You have to be able to work and you have to be like un-flappable. Yeah. Not only from an athlete standpoint but you have to be able to work well with other team members, right? Like there’s team physicians, ATs athletic trainers and physical therapists and um

[8:37] PTs and chiropractors and you have to play nicely in the sandbox. And you also have to be really good at your job when someone who’s going to make the Olympic team shows up on your table and is like “My hip is killing me. Can you help me?” Like, you know. Like you get one shot. Yeah. One shot to help them. >> And then you’re under the gun. Yeah. And so what are some of the common issues that you’re seeing these athletes coming to you for? Yeah, so, I mean, the biggies in sprinting are hamstrings. Like, hamstrings are

[9:09] are the thing. Um there’s hip flexors, um, and to be more specific it’s usually the psoas, right. It’s the deep hip flexor. Um, you know, hip rotators come up. You see some hip pain. Um, and then you always have the like chronic issue people, right? Those are the people who are managing things and so they come in for maintenance more than anything else. And um high school, high hamstring or proximal hamstring tendinopathies, those come up a lot.

[9:39] Um, and then from a more general standpoint, uh, glute, piriformis um issues are um, are common um, uh, with, with jumpers and sprinters and pole vaulters. Like, those people tend to have these hips that are a little, little different than you know, what we’re used to seeing. >> Yeah, those hip flexors have to be flying. >> They are. They’re insane. Like, when when you get in on one of these sprinters and you touch their hip flexors, you’re like, “Oh my.” Like it, it makes sense how fast they’re going, but still. >>

[10:10] Tight? >> Oh, yeah, so tight. Yeah. And and what’s, what’s your, um what’s your approach to that? Like when someone comes in and they’re like, “Yeah, my hip flexors are all jacked up,” um, are you focusing on release, and if so, like what techniques are you using? Like, what does that look like? Yeah, I mean you’re definitely looking at trying to release things but I always go back to what’s the goal right like I want to I want to calm things down not inflame them because

[10:40] if if I go in too hard and I make the, the hip flexors really inflamed like they’re going to be worse. They need to run today or tomorrow. Yeah. And so you have to you have to be, um, judicious in your approach. Um, I think there’s a huge nervous system component to to all of what we deal with but specifically with, with tightness, with with really contracted um, muscles, um, and so trying to take a more neurological approach um,

[11:10] instead of just going in really hard. Um, sometimes you really have to um, just go in um, with really broad um, gentle um, pressure and let things kind of melt, kind of unwind. And it, it will take um, a little bit more time but it’s the right approach because you’re not going to inflame the tissue. >> Yeah. And and it’s something that like the athletes have to trust, right? Like if you’re going to go in really hard and the athlete’s not going to trust you, they’re going to tighten up against what

[11:41] you’re doing. Yeah. Um, so establishing, first establishing that trust is maybe as important as the technique? Absolutely. 100%. And that’s especially true when you talk about psoas, right? Like that’s an internal muscle. It’s not something that um, most people know you can work on. >> Yeah. Um, and then when you tell an athlete, “Hey, I’m going to get in there and work on that deep hip flexor,” um, there’s sometimes some real apprehension. >> Yeah. And, and

[12:11] I’ve had to stop working on athletes and say look right now I need you to take some slow deep breaths and we’re going to try this again because their body just will not let you in. And that’s not because they’re being difficult, it’s, um, it’s just their, their body’s response is to protect itself. And so sometimes you just have to, you know, give it a little time and, and really, really kind of work on that relaxation piece. Um, yeah. And how um, from a time standpoint, like at

[12:41] an event like the Outdoor Trials or the actual Olympics, like how much time do you have with athletes? Yeah, so it, it really depends, right, like if it’s an event where there’s a big break um, and they have time to come in and get a, you know, full um, treatment that might be 30 to 45 minutes. Um, um, yeah, um, but with, with, with these bigger events right, sometimes you get seven to ten minutes like that’s it. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Because I need to

[13:11] get to the start line and and I know this is a weird question but when someone comes in and you have seven minutes, do you have like A plan like right away? Yeah. You have to. Um, you know, there’s some communication that happens, right, but it’s quick. And then you’re in. Yeah. And so that communication I think is key because you’re coming in fast, like you’re, there’s not a lot of time for pleasantries and what’s going on in your life. It’s like, where’s your problem, what’s happening, what do you need. >> Yeah.

[13:41] And and then I’d be really curious, like is, is your approach with seven minutes any different than 45 minutes, other than time? Absolutely. Yes. Like with seven minutes I am I have to be very targeted. I can’t waste time. And I’m also really looking at where is the biggest bang for the buck. Where am I going to get the most return? Yeah. And I’m, I’m also thinking about what can’t I do, right? Like there are things that I would love to do in 45 minutes that I just can’t do in seven that might be effective but they

[14:11] take time. And so I have to be, I have to think, um, really about what I’m going to do before I’m going to do it. Because once I’m in, I’m in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s fascinating. And I think one of the things that I appreciate about you Don is like you’ve been doing this a long time. There’s a, there’s an art to it along with the science and I think some people early in their career they don’t have all of those tools available even if they know them, right? Like, when you’re newer and less experienced

[14:41] you’re under stress, sometimes it’s hard to access what you know and so. Yeah, and there’s also a huge confidence piece too, right? Like when you go in, if you hesitate, if you’re not sure, the athlete’s going to feel that. And it’s, it’s interesting because in some ways um going to these events and working with these athletes for so many years, it actually took some of the nervousness away from me, right? Like now when I go to these events I’m just kind of in work mode, right, which is where I need to be. But, but early

[15:11] on, man, like I I remember shaking, like literally shaking because I’m like, “This is the best sprinter in the world sitting on my table.” And, and I, you know, I want to do right by them and, and how do I, how do I um, how do I do that? And, and you just have to kind of let that fear go and, and trust your training and your knowledge base. And, and that’s, it’s easier said than done, but but with experience it gets easier. And um, that just kind of makes sense. Well, and I think the other thing too is you,

[15:42] you build that rapport over time, right? Like you said networking in the sport, and then like now there’s a familiarity with Don showing up at these events. Like, so the athletes know who you are. Yeah. It’s a lot easier when they come in and say, “Hey Don, how are you doing?” versus like, “Who is this?” Right. Exactly. And then um, and so when the athlete knows you and trusts you from the get-go, um, you have you have a lot more leeway, right? And, and um I think that’s really, really valuable. Yeah. Yeah. So

[16:12] is it is it specific like certain athletes that you kind of follow from event to event? Yeah, it can be, um, it often is. And um, so for example, like, uh, Ashton Eaton and Brianne Theisen-Eaton, um, they, uh, he actually reached out to me um, in I believe 2015, at some point during the season. Um and asked me if I would be their private therapist for, um the season. Because I had worked on both of them at, at events and they really liked the work. And um and so I was

[16:42] like, absolutely. And so that was, um, really cool. And so I spent, um, the summer of 2015 and then, um, the pre-Olympic stuff and then the Olympic Games themselves kind of following those two, um, as their, um, private therapist. And, um, yeah, it was, it was an incredible experience. It, it did, um, I don’t know how to say this right, but like, it um it was wild going to Rio as, as their

[17:12] private therapist and, and, and Ashton ends up winning his second consecutive Olympic gold medal in the decathlon. Like that’s that was mind-blowing. Yeah. And you’re behind the scenes but you’re like part of the team and um you know maybe in some small way you were you were part of that. Yeah. And I’ll say this, it was very humbling because they chose me to do this and um and I felt that weight and I felt the honor of that and so

[17:42] I wanted to bring everything I had. And um it was, it was incredible. So cool. >> So what does, um, what does a typical, um, body worker’s day look like at an event like the Olympics? Yeah. So um we would, um, so like in, in Rio um we had a, uh, a US Olympic training site um, kind of outside of the, the Olympic village. Um, and so they had facilities

[18:12] there and then there were facilities in the village as well. Um and so at the village um you had a, uh, multi-sport medical setup, right? So like every sport is sharing this, this um facility. And um and so basically on any given day, right, you know, depending, depending on what’s happening with the athletes I’m working with, like if Ashton has a event day, then I’m there um early in the morning, I’m doing the pre-event preparation um massage and

[18:42] and then um wait for him to compete and and then come back and do the post-competition recovery work and um and so it could be a long day or short day depending on what’s happening. And um at most of these events right there there’s just a ton of uh what I call traffic volume, like you just people are coming in constantly and um sometimes you get a little break sometimes you don’t. Um but it’s um yeah, the days are long.

[19:13] >> So, um, speaking of pre, um, what does pre-event massage look like for an elite sprinter? Yeah. So, um, so pre-event massage is, is really different from, um, I would say like a pre-event massage that you might do on a recreational athlete. Because at this, um, this level, right, they have such high nervous system um, output, like they’re already so dialed in. And I’ve

[19:43] had to learn this over the years, right, like early on I’m like, “I’ll just do what I normally do for pre-event work.” And then I had one athlete look at me and say, “Hey, that was too much, like that, like I feel too relaxed.” And so that’s that’s a bad thing when you’re about to sprint the 100 meters. And so um the pre-event massage at this level is much more activating, right? It’s lighter, it’s faster, it’s just kind of getting things woken up, getting blood flow happening, a little bit of tissue prep,

[20:13] um and then um you know there’s also some um some nervous system activation stuff um that I use that kind of like gets the brain engaged. Um yeah, and, and, you know, with, with an athlete like Ashton, I also just kind of know what he needs. And so there’s, there’s also a really strong um individual component, right? Like different athletes need different things. Yeah. And so part of your job at that level is knowing your athletes well enough that

[20:44] you can tailor what you do, um, to them specifically. Yeah. So, um, what about post-event? Like, what does that look like? Yeah. So post-event is, is more of what people think of as um, massage, right? So now we’re, we’re flushing the legs out. Um, we’re doing um some some broader work, um, just to kind of get the, the overall uh blood flow happening, um, removing um the metabolic waste um that’s built up um and just kind of trying to um facilitate a good

[21:14] recovery. Um, now after a really hard bout of sprinting, right, um, the muscle, um, the muscles actually sustain micro-damage, right? So there is actually um some tissue damage and um and so you have to be careful with too much pressure um on, on those early on because um you don’t want to do more damage to that, to that tissue. And so there’s, there’s um there’s still a balance of um what you do, how much pressure you use, um, even in that post-event setting. Um and I’ll say this too, right, like um so there’s a lot

[21:44] of um debate about whether massage um is actually effective at recovery, right? Like there have been um some studies um and I, I actually had um I went down the rabbit hole um on, on some of this stuff and um there’s, there’s a lot of interesting evidence um that massage is effective but I will say that and anyone in the field will say this, the science on massage kind of sucks. Like it’s, it is, it is, it is an emerging science and it’s, it’s hard to study right

[22:14] because there’s so many variables and there’s the whole blinding issue and um. But but anecdotally um and and not even anecdotally because I think some of the evidence does support it, um there’s a nervous system component to massage that um you know we’re going to say this without having like a perfect double-blind placebo controlled trial to back it up but um you know it does help the nervous system kind of downregulate and um and so that’s that’s a piece of it um and and

[22:44] there are some things um with with inflammation um and um blood flow where um the science is is supportive. Yeah, I mean I think also like um yeah the evidence base is tough but I think one thing that we know is that like touch um, it, it, it does matter. Like there’s, there’s science around touch and like the positive effects of that. And um if nothing else that is valuable, right? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Like I said we want to go down that rabbit hole. Kathy has a whole

[23:15] podcast about this. About touch? About evidence. About evidence. Like, evidence-based practitioner right here. >> Yeah I think we have a couple episodes about that. And I think the other thing is when we think about evidence-based practice, we think about, um, the best evidence, but we also think about patient experience, patient preference, and clinician experience. And, um, I think, I think, you know, with, with massage especially like the clinician experience and the patient preference pieces are huge. Yeah. Because if

[23:45] you come out on the table post-event and you feel better, your body feels better, even if the evidence is, is a little murky, it matters. Yeah. And at this level, right, every little edge, every little thing helps. >> They’re going to do it. Yeah. Yeah. And I’ll say this, like I’ve had athletes look at me after post-event work and say “I wouldn’t sleep tonight if I didn’t have this.” Right. Like um there’s a mental thing here too, right? Like um and if they feel that they can’t wind down um and

[24:15] recover and they can’t sleep and then their their recovery is hampered by that um it’s worth it. Yeah. Yeah. So, I want to ask you about a specific scenario because I think it highlights like the nuance in the work that you do. But, um, how does your approach or thought process change um when you have an athlete who’s competing multiple times over multiple days? Yeah. So, um yeah so this, this, this is like a, this is a great example of what we deal with, right? Um, so like the decathlon, right? Ashton

[24:45] the decathlon is two days. And, um, and you have 10 events. And so um like day one, um, you know, he comes off the field after the, the 1500 meter run that closes day two, right? Like, and there are all of these things that have kind of happened along the way um that you’re, you’re managing. And then you have like the, the, the, the 1500 meter which is not a sprint, right? So now you’ve got all this aerobic muscle fatigue and, and um and the legs are done. And so um recovery work that night is so

[25:15] critical for setting up day two. >> Yeah. And and within the decathlon itself right, you have jumps, you have throws, you have sprints, you have hurdles, like all of it happening in two days. And so um those events aren’t always friendly to each other, right? Like the throws put a lot of strain on um like the shoulder, the elbow. Um the jumping events um, the hurdles put a huge amount of stress on the hamstrings. Um and so you’re kind of like um you’re managing all of these things while also trying to

[25:45] not do too much, right? Because if I go in too hard and I inflame something in between, um, events, that’s bad. And um so the whole um you know the first rule is do no harm, right? And, and that is very real at, at this level. And so you’re being very thoughtful um about what you do, how much pressure you use, um, trying not to inflame tissue um while also trying to get the recovery happening. And um yeah, like we said, the

[26:15] recovery between day one and day two is, is maybe one of the most critical windows in the entire event. Because if you go into day two um beat up um and, and not having recovered well, um, day two is going to be rough. And so yeah, I, I think about that a lot. Yeah. That’s really fascinating. And I think what I love about the way you describe this, right, is that you’re not just thinking about the massage and the techniques like you’re thinking about the total picture. And I think that, you know, for, for our listeners who are, um, maybe thinking about massage or even practitioners

[26:45] who are newer, right, like that’s, that’s the thing you have to develop is, you know, being able to assess the whole situation and and make a call, right? And, and sometimes the call is, “I don’t need to do that right now.” Right? Yeah. Yeah. And and and that, that kind of restraint and um, you know, knowing when not to do something is as important as knowing what to do. Yeah, absolutely. And I’ll, I’ll add, um, you know, there’s, there’s a huge um communication component too because um so at the Olympics, right, I’m, I’m working with Ashton,

[27:15] I’m working with Brie. Um and, and there are other members of their team, right? There’s um strength coaches, um there’s, there’s, um, the USATF sports medicine team. Um and so there’s communication that has to happen between all of us because um you know if the athletic trainer does something and then I try to do something on top of that, um, you know, that’s potentially problematic. And so there’s, there’s a lot of information sharing that has to happen and um and that, that communication piece is, is huge.

[27:46] Yeah. >> Yeah. And I think too, from my perspective working the event that I worked with you, that’s the thing that I really valued is like the team approach. Like we were all there for the same goal. Yeah. We wanted these athletes to do well and we each have our own like little areas of expertise and we can like divvy that up and that’s actually the best case scenario. Yeah. Yeah, it’s um it’s, it is a, it is a great thing when it works well. Um when, when you’re in an environment where everyone um respects

[28:16] what the other people bring, right? And, and understands, um, you know, what, what everyone’s role is and there’s not a lot of ego. Like there’s a lot of ego um unfortunately in sports medicine. Um and when you’re in an environment where that ego is set aside um like you can get so much more done. Yeah. Yeah. Because it’s not about who’s right. It’s about what’s right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. That’s good. Um, so, um, what, what about, um, injuries and like being involved in that process like what does

[28:46] that look like from your perspective? Yeah. So, um, so I, I think this is a, I want to stress how important it is that as a massage therapist you know your scope of practice and you know your role. Um, and so like diagnosing things is not my job, right? Um, and so what I do is I, I um I refer out. Like my, my job is to identify something is wrong and then get the right person um working on that. Um, and so when an athlete comes to me and, you know, there’s something there

[29:16] that is more than what I can address, um, then I get the AT, I get the physician, I get, you know, whoever needs to be there, there. Um, and, and I think that’s really, really important because um, like, the risk of um, an untrained practitioner doing something on an, on an injury and making it worse is, is significant. Yeah. And especially at these events, right? Like um, if I screw up the hamstring, like this person’s competition may be over. Yeah. And so um that, that piece about knowing what you can’t do

[29:46] is, is just as important as knowing what you can do. Yeah. And that, and that’s really like a maturity thing, right? Like knowing your scope, knowing, you know, when to refer out. And like you said, there’s ego in sports medicine. And I think especially when you’re newer, right, like you, you’re scared to say, “I don’t know.” Like that’s, that’s the hardest thing to say sometimes. Yeah. >> Yeah. And especially like when you think you might know, right? Like it’s easy when you’re like completely outside of your lane

[30:16] to say, “I don’t know.” But when you’re like kind of in the area and you’re like, “Well I think I can handle this,” like that’s actually potentially the most dangerous place to be. Yeah. Yeah. And I’ll say this like the best, the best of the best, right, like they know when to defer. Like the the best physicians I’ve worked with, the best athletic trainers I’ve worked with, um they know when something is outside of, of what they can handle and they defer. And, and that that’s actually a strength, right? Like that’s not, not a weakness. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Let’s

[30:47] talk about some, uh, some, uh, some interesting stories. Um, yeah, something something wild. Yeah. So, um, I was in, uh I was in Belgrade in 2022 for the World Athletics Indoor Championships. And, um, this is a, um, a funny story. So I’m, um, I’m working at the event and um, I see I see um, this, uh athlete I had never met before and he, uh, he walks into the treatment room and it’s actually um there’s not a lot of room in there. It’s kind of a tight

[31:17] space. And, um, I can tell that something’s going on with him. He’s kind of, you know, he’s holding his back and, um, and he, he’s actually um there were other practitioners in there and he kind of bypasses them and comes over to me. And, and I’m like, and he goes, “Can you help me?” And I’m like, “Yeah, I’ll try.” And, um, he, um, so he explains that um he has this kind of nagging, um back issue and, and um he’s competing tomorrow. Um and so I got him on the table, um assessed what was going on, um did

[31:47] my best work on him, um, got him feeling better and um and he ran the next day and did well. And it was actually a pretty cool moment because um a few days later he um came back and, and was like, “I just want to come back and say thank you, that really helped.” Um, and, and I was, um, yeah, that, that was a, that was a, you know, one of those moments where you’re like, okay, I love what I do. Yeah. Like that, that’s why I do this. Um, and, and so yeah, that,

[32:17] that kind of story right? There are many of those. Yeah, I love it. And and that’s the thing right like these, these aren’t just athletes, these are people. And, and those moments where you connect and you help someone and they come back and say thank you, like that’s that’s the stuff. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. >> So, um, let’s talk about, um, kind of the other side of what you do. Um, so I know you, you do, um, some coaching um and, and some other things. Um, tell us about that. Yeah. So, um, like I mentioned I, I’ve been a

[32:47] high school basketball and soccer coach for, for quite a while. Um, and, and, and I, I love it. Um you know, it’s, it’s very different from the sports medicine world in a lot of ways but um there’s also a lot of overlap. Um and I think the biggest overlap is the relationship piece, right? Like coaching, um, at, at the high school level is, is as much about relationships as it is about, you know, um, X’s and O’s, right? And, um, so that, that relationship piece, um, it translates, right? Like when I’m working with

[33:17] an elite athlete and I have that rapport, like, some of that comes from, from coaching. Um, and, and then from the coaching side, um, understanding um the body, understanding movement, um, understanding some of the, the sport science stuff um, really helps with coaching. And so, they, they inform each other in a really nice way. Yeah. I love it. What sport do you prefer coaching? Yeah, I, I, I think I prefer basketball um just because it was

[33:47] it, it’s, it’s the one that I’ve been coaching the longest. Um I, I, I grew up playing basketball. Um and, and so there’s a lot of knowledge there but um I, I love soccer too. Like it’s, it’s a beautiful game and, and um I, I love the coaching of it but um yeah, I think I’d probably say basketball. What level? Um, so I’ve, I’ve been at, um, the middle school level. Um, and then I’ve been at the high school JV level. Um, and so, um, you know, it’s, it’s fun. Like it’s a it’s a fun thing.

[34:17] Yeah, I love it. And what do you get out of it? Like, why do you, why do you keep coming back to it? Yeah. So, um, it’s, it’s funny, right? Like, um, I think, I think what I get out of it is, um, seeing, seeing young people kind of discover what they’re capable of. Right? Like, um, and it, it’s, it’s not always about, you know, wins and losses, right? Like it’s, it’s more about, um, watching a kid who didn’t know they could do something, um, do it. And, um, and that’s, that’s the thing, right? That’s

[34:47] the, that’s the, um, the, the payoff that, that keeps me coming back. Um, yeah. I, I, I love it. I love working with young people. And it’s actually one of those things where like the, the, the message of your podcast, right? Like, um, asking better questions, thinking harder, like, that’s actually something that I work on with my athletes too. Like, um, and it’s, it’s interesting because at the high school level, right, you have to, you have to, um, meet kids where they are. And, um, and sometimes like the question is the answer, right? Like if you can, if you can get a kid to ask

[35:17] a better question about what they’re doing, then like they can solve the problem themselves. And, um, and I think that, you know, that’s, that’s a, that’s a coaching principle but it also applies, you know, in in the clinical setting too, right? Like it’s, it’s not always about you having the answer. Sometimes it’s about um, guiding someone to find the answer for themselves. And that, and that’s a, that’s a real skill. Yeah. I love that. >> Yeah. Well, cool. Um, so, um, one last, um, one last thing I want to ask you about.

[35:47] Um, so like, you know, you’ve worked at the highest level. Um, you, you’ve, you’ve been, um, in some of the most, um, high-pressure situations in, in sport. Um, what, what do you, what do you want people to, um, to know about massage therapy? Like, what’s your, what’s your like big message? Yeah. So, I, I, I think, um, I think the biggest thing is, is, and I know we’ve talked about this but, um, massage is, is a tool. Right? And like any tool, um, the value of it is, is in how you use it. And, um, and I

[36:17] think that’s, um, that’s the, that’s the thing that I want people to take away, right? Like it’s, it’s not, it’s not a, it’s not a magic bullet. Um, it, it’s, it’s one thing in, in, you know, in, in a big toolkit

[6:06] They were doomed. They were. Yeah. No, but Buttner family is a great family and so I can attest to that. So. say so. Yeah. Okay, what did your early career look like? So, I from the get-go just decided I was going out on my own. Didn’t want to work for anybody else. Kind of knew I had a vision of what I wanted my space to look like, the client base I wanted to work with. Back then they had this thing called the yellow pages, which is — it was the old form of Google where there were phones to look things up. So, you would actually advertise your

[6:36] business in these yellow pages and people could look for massage therapy in there. And if you did, back then everything was kind of woo-woo, spa oriented. So, I was like, “Well, let’s create a logo that looks like I’m not woo-woo. Mhm. I want to be orthopedic in nature.” So, I put that in there and that was brilliant. Wow. Because nobody else had something like that. People were looking for it and they’re like, “Oh, I saw your yellow page ad.” And so, I got busy fast, faster than normal. Yeah. So, that was really lucky and like I said, this guy John Hart back in the massage school had taught me how to actually do stuff

[7:06] for people. Yeah. That was effective orthopedically. Wow. And so, it was a lot of orthopedic work with weekend warrior type people. Yeah. Yeah. So, I use a lot of muscle energy technique that I can still do now. Yeah. And that is kind of what got me launched into the sports side of it. There was a guy in Eugene — so, we know what muscle energy technique is. Oh, yeah, yeah. But can you explain that to people? And also, real quick, would you recommend that a new practitioner today get right into the yellow pages? Yes, for sure. They are

[7:36] they’re cheaper than they used to be. Yeah, if you can find some. Yeah. Yeah, definitely get in them. Yeah. Yeah, so what’s muscle energy technique? If you’ve got a muscle that is neurologically tight for some reason, there’s all sorts of ways to approach that in terms of getting it to loosen up. One of them is to put it on a gentle stretch and then have the person isometrically contract against that, which means that they are held static while they do a contraction that gets — ideally just

[8:08] that muscle that’s being stretched that is tight. We think in theory, as a muscle is tight, when you fire it, the tight fibers are going to be the ones that fire first as a protective mechanism. You hold that firing for about 6 to 8 seconds. It sort of wears out the energy that’s in that muscle right there, changes how it’s responding neurologically, and you can stretch it safer, farther, and gain range of motion in areas that are restricted. And you’re talking actual energy, not crystal energy. Right, but for my daughter’s sake, it helps if you wave some selenite.

[8:39] Yeah, same time. So, I mean, the inside joke here is his daughter has a great rock and mineral shop in the Albany Heritage Mall. So, head on over there. What’s the name of the shop? K8 Crystals. K8 Crystals, yeah. And I actually have a few fine pieces in my clinic from it. So, yes. I guess she’s an unofficial sponsor of the show. Happy to be that. Or not, maybe. She — yeah. She’s got some pieces in my clinic, too. I don’t — well, she really wants me to use

[9:10] some gua sha. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I’ve got a couple of them, and I don’t — yeah. So, anyway, that’s the idea. So, muscle energy technique wasn’t utilized by a lot of people back then, but certainly was successful for me, and I could really make a difference for people because — I think if you can work at a neurological point first instead of just beating stuff up, right? Get the body to help you make the changes. I know that’s what you guys do.

[9:40] I just pound down the high spots. Yeah, if it’s tight, rub it — kind of deal. Yeah, that’s the thrust we trust. Yes. Yes. Elbows are your friend. Anyway, so that muscle energy technique stuff actually was what got me lucky enough to get into sports at the level I was at, because there’s a guy in Eugene named Chris Watt — sign who was teaching a class. Okay. One weekend and one of my classmates from Portland called and said, “Hey, there’s this guy teaching this class. You want to go?” I’m like, “Oh, sure.” So we get down there and it’s a really good class. Super impressive, but I already know everything he’s teaching.

[10:10] So I ended up just helping him with this, and it turns out at the time he was Marion Jones’ massage therapist. He was also like Stacy Dragila, who is a pole vaulter, and some of the biggest names in track and field at the time. He was the team captain for Prefontaine Classic. Nice. And he’s like, “Hey, you need to come work with us at this event.” Yeah. And so I flat out just got lucky. So when I launched it was right into that elite level. Wow. You’re lucky and good though. Yeah, I guess in that sense that it’s

[10:40] sort of earned, but lucky to find him. Yeah. Like what do they say — luck is when preparation meets opportunity? Something like that. Yeah, but I mean, so yeah, you were lucky, but if you hadn’t done all the stuff leading up to it, you’re not the guy. So anyway, that’s — so when I launched it was like right up to that level. Wow. Which was pretty cool. You’re yeah, thrown into the fire. Yeah, my first event Marion Jones is on my table. I’m just — so what’s going on with — so now, now tell us about impostor syndrome. Right?

[11:11] Yeah. Yeah. What does that feel like? You’re like, “Okay, this is Marion Jones. I’m going to pretend like I know what I’m doing.” Right, there was some of that. Yeah. Because I mean it’s really real, especially when it comes to working in sports because, you know, we work with Oregon State and so — you see these people and like I remember feeling like I better not screw this up. Oh my gosh. Actually at first they just gave me a bunch of people that were about to medically retire because they were like, if this guy’s going to kill somebody — these are the ones. Yeah, we we

[11:43] don’t we can afford them. Yeah, we don’t want him killing anybody important. So don’t send the quarterback over to that guy. Right. Yeah, so I mean but take us through that like when you first — when that door opened up, how did you like mentally rise to that moment? I kind of just decided to go with what I knew and what had been working for me. I’d done a little bit of sports stuff here and there, certainly not that level. But it turns out back then a lot of the people that were in that arena with me also hadn’t done a lot of that level.

[12:14] And I had Chris there to be a mentor, right? And so he was just like, first of all, act like you know what you’re doing. Right. And so that that lesson — don’t, right? Don’t ask me questions while you’re working on that athlete. They don’t need that lack of confidence around them at the time. They need to trust what you’re doing. And they have a reason that they can. It’s basically what he told me. You know enough about what you’re doing. If you don’t know something, don’t do it. Right? So I kind of stuck with the muscle energy technique stuff, you

[12:44] know, they come in and I do a quick orthopedic assessment. Check their balance and whatever and like do some of that and then just sort of shake it out, right? I learned really quickly there kind of how to interact with the nervous system to make it so that I felt like it was ready to go. Right? And that’s really because at that event we’re doing pre-event massage, right? These guys are about to go compete in a really important meet. If there’s a problem that I’m finding, they’re in trouble anyway. Right? So just don’t create a problem.

[13:16] And if there is one, they’re not going to race well anyway. But anyway, other than that, get them ready to go. Get the nervous system talking to the muscles, everything’s firing fast, and get them out of there. Don’t take a lot of time. Right. And then the biggest part of that job is when they’re done, they come back for what they — we call a flush. Yeah. They want to get things cleaned out. They’ve just blown through all those tissues. They’ve turned those hamstrings into — oh good, risk it. Yeah. And we need to clean it up so they can recover faster and then they can train again and get ready for the next event the next weekend. Yeah, that’s when you

[13:46] might tell them you found a problem. You don’t tell them that before they go in the race. Yeah, P.S. Yeah, there have been a couple of times where I have a relationship with an athlete already and I’m like, I don’t like how this feels. Mhm. And I fortunately also know a lot of the coaches and so I can — sometimes I have the luxury of working with them a day or two before the meet. Yeah. And so I can say, “Listen, when you go to practice watch for this. If you feel this when we’re ramping up to like 80% — if you feel this at all, shut it down. Mhm. Like I’m worried about this. If you don’t, great. Go for it. When you kind

[14:17] of go hard, it’s going to blow out the system. You’re going to blow out the carbon basically. You’re going to be good and you’ll feel it.” Yeah. “But if you get a little bit of feedback, come back.” Yeah. Like shut it down right there. Come back. We’ll look at it again. Might be able to do a little extra stuff, throw some KT tape on it or dynamic tape or something and then test it again, but Right. most of the time, you know, you’re hoping you don’t find that again. Yeah. So you’re just like, yep. Yeah, you’re good. Yeah. Get out of here. Your nervous system’s fine. Work a lot with chiropractors in that realm where I collaborate with them and I’ll do some of my work to get things ready to go.

[14:48] You’ve probably seen me do my ridiculous stretch thing that I do where we strap people down and we’re going 100 miles an hour. I love it. Get done with that and I send them right over to the chiropractic table and they do adjustments at the spinal level where those nerve roots are feeding to those muscles that are going to be used the most. Not because they need the adjustment for alignment, because they want to wake up the nerves. Yeah. And a chiropractic adjustment at that level is just brilliant for that. Really gets them firing. And so they come out of the blocks and they are cooking. They’re smoking. Let me explain the stages. This is kind of how it works at these events is

[15:18] there’s a big medical tent. And what’s great for me is we’re all kind of there standing by our tables and athletes will filter in and a lot of them, you know, they start with Don. And so if I have downtime I get to watch Don treat these athletes and it’s so amazing. So, will you talk about that technique you were just talking about where you strap them down? Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yeah, what is — what’s happening there? For the geeks out there that know — remember, this is a family show. There are no straps involved. Yeah.

[15:49] It — I guess my comparison would be rapid active isolated stretching. So for those of you out there that aren’t geeks — if there’s this concept called reciprocal inhibition. If I flex my bicep right here, my tricep kind of shuts down. Yeah. So, if you’re not watching, Don has a very large bicep. And you just missed it. So, yeah. And if you are watching, we’ll just pause here for a second so that you can rewind it real quick and see that again. Okay, continue. Okay, so we take advantage of that idea

[16:20] of it. And so if you imagine an athlete laying on their back on a massage table and say I’m going to work on their right leg on a hamstring stretch. And if you’re laying on your back and I’m going to do a hamstring stretch, I might lift up your whole leg. Okay. Right. And so the hamstring on the back side of the leg is stretching. Mhm. If you at the same time fire your hip flexors or your quads, both, and you help pull that leg farther up — yeah — neurologically it inhibits the hamstring. You can let me stretch you

[16:50] farther safely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if we do this rapidly and I do like 10 stretches in about — it is fast. We are flying. I’m going fast enough that I literally have to have the other leg strapped down in two spots on the table so they don’t go flying off the table. And sometimes somebody holding the table so it doesn’t go flying. But they’re kicking at the same time I’m lifting. And what we’re doing there is not really stretching the hamstring. Yes, we are stretching the hamstring, but that’s not the point of this. Right. The point of this is to warm up the

[17:21] joint capsule. And get more range of motion in that joint capsule so that it is right then neurologically ready to allow that range of motion. And the nervous system firing into that system — that whole system. Mhm. And for instance with a hurdler, if I’m going to work with a hurdler and do this, I will not do this for them for the first time before an event. Right. Because if they haven’t had me do this, they will — yeah, because they come out of the blocks so much faster that they don’t — they’re not ready. Timing’s just going to be off. It’s off. And so I love

[17:52] — I worked a lot with Aries Merritt, who’s the world record holder currently in the 110 hurdles. And he loved this technique because it really helped him a lot with that. And so we had chances to work ahead of time and he knew what his body would feel like and he’d be ready for that. But it’s just really fun to be able to help these athletes be just that much — as like you said, they’re chasing sometimes thousandths of a second. Yeah. This might make that difference. And that technique also takes coordination from the athlete to be able to fire their quad. If they don’t, while you’re stretching — yeah — I’m going to tear their hamstring.

[18:22] Yes. Right? So I also won’t work with somebody who hasn’t got that skill. Right. And so I have to feel it on every single stretch. I’m paying attention really closely every time I bring that leg up, and if they don’t, you probably heard me — I’m like, “Fire, fire, fire,” and I’m tapping them at the same time, because I don’t want to hurt them. No. But the potential is there if they’re not doing their job right. But if they’re doing their job right and I’m doing mine right, really good results. Yeah. So and I think another aspect of this is you’re not just working on hamstrings and joint capsules, you’re also working on

[18:52] what’s between the ears. Athletes are weird. They’re weird, they’re psychotic, they’re obsessive — oh, they’re superstitious. Yeah, they’re anxious. It’s one of those things where I think even if you’re a top level athlete and you’re looking at another top level athlete and they’re working with a massage therapist and you’re not, that is enough of an edge to

[19:23] maybe get that last little bit of performance out. And so I think it’s a really — mess up the other guy. Yeah, totally. And that’s the thing. Have the magnetic bracelet. That’s it. And that’s totally the way they are. Like I remember when I was — gosh, I was a chiropractic student and we got to go out to Seaside, big volleyball tournament out there. I did that and I was like, this is how I want my career to be. I just want to be treating people on the beach. Yeah, that’s not how it turned out. So close. But man, you go

[19:56] and you’d adjust somebody and we’re chiropractic students, so we don’t know a lot, right? But you work on somebody and maybe do a little stretch or something like that. They go out and they win a match and they come back and they’re like, “Whatever you just did, do it again.” Two times now. What — yeah. But I mean, you run into that stuff, right? Where people get really particular. Is there ever any pressure that you won’t be able to show up in that way for the athlete when they need it?

[20:26] Jason: Yeah. I’ll tell you, that was a lot of pressure when I was traveling with Ashleigh Caldwell. Right. So there’s pressure also like at these one-off events — like Proof on the 10 — you see these athletes once a year. Right. This event, that’s it. But with Ashleigh Caldwell, two years traveling the world with them. Wow. Prepping for the Olympics, and everything was about — these guys got to be ready for the Olympics. And yeah, the pressure was on. I’ll tell you, when the coach called me initially to say, “Hey, we are interested in talking

[20:56] to you about doing this,” he said to me, “The goal is two gold medals and anything less than that will be considered failure.” And I was like, “That’s pretty lofty.” And he was like — I mean, why would you say — he said, “Why would we do anything different?” I thought about that and I’m like, well, could you apply that to anything in life actually? But when the pressure is that — when you have to be the best in the world at this moment and if you’re not, we’re going to consider everything we’ve done failure — man, that’s heavy.

[21:27] That’s a lot of pressure. And I did not want to screw up. And we didn’t win gold. So maybe I screwed up. Yeah, that’s it. The other thing — the coach actually wanted us to have you on and he wanted us to talk to you about that. Yeah. Raul, have you got him — have you got him on the line? Is he dialed in? I think so. No, no, I’m going to go. We would never do that to you. Actually, I think he’s okay with me. Yeah. There was a lot to it.

[21:58] But she did walk away with a medal. It wasn’t a sweep. It was — it was only — maybe she would have walked away with the medal but it wouldn’t have been a gold one. Third best in the entire world is still pretty darn good. It’s unbelievable. It’s really something. What’s funny is those athletes at that level — we’d go to meets just — like, they wouldn’t do the entire decathlon or heptathlon for me. You can’t, right? But so we would practice on parts of it.

[22:28] But people expected them to break their own personal bests every single — right? Like if they did a multi-event meet, they expected Ashton to break the world record every time. Can you imagine that pressure? Like you can’t have your very best day every single day. It doesn’t happen that way. That’s like track and field culture though. You know, my son started throwing last year and so the first couple of meets he went to — it’s like, “Oh yeah, PR, PR.” This person got a PR, PR, PR. And then halfway through the season it’s like, “How did it go?” He

[22:59] was like, “I did all right. I didn’t get a PR.” Yeah, he didn’t get a PR and it’s like, “Bro, you did really, really good.” Kathy: doing that every time. Jason: Yeah, you can’t do that every time. Kathy: Yeah, but just the gold — fans were there to see that. That’s what they — Jason: Yeah, cuz they’re there that one time. Kathy: Sometimes. Yeah, and that’s just like people just like, “Well, yeah, he’s going to break the world record cuz he’s out there again.” Yeah. Yeah, but this is that guy — is world record guy. Jason: Yeah. It’s what he does. That’s right. He breaks world records. Kathy: doing it. All the time. Every every meet. So, how did you prep for — how did you prep for that kind of pressure? And it was really great having the coach

[23:30] around. I basically lived with him for a couple years. And so, you know, my my experience from a coaching standpoint was high school level. And it was at South Albany High School, and I love South Albany High School, but to be honest — Jason: Let’s go Red Hawks. Kathy: they are not the dominant team typically. No, and I wish they were. I really do. They’re great kids. Great kids. Jason: They are. And I agree, they are fantastic kids. That really was the most rewarding thing in my life, but other than family. Kathy: Yeah. you know, I — the expectations weren’t

[24:00] world records and medals. And so, but I also did understand coaching Jason: Yeah. Kathy: a little bit. Jason: Yeah. Kathy: And I understood pressure. Jason: Mhm. Even with coaching, like you want your kids to do well. Kathy: Right. So, you’re nervous, and so I just like talked with Harry about, “Okay, how do we approach these things?” And his whole thing was like — from the time I started in October, two years before the Olympics, like every single night was panic about what’s going to get in the way, mostly injury-wise, and to mess up getting to

[24:30] the Olympics. And he was thinking about that two years ahead. So, kind of changed the focus from like we have to perform at this level every time to we just need to be really smart about what’s going on with these bodies. Pay attention to what’s happening, and like we understood we don’t have to break world records every time. There’s a progression, right? Jason: Right. You’ve got that going on. Kathy: Mhm. Where you’re planning all of this towards peaking at the right time. And so, we just sort of took it from

[25:00] that approach and instead of focusing on the pressure, we just focus on what’s the job today. Jason: Yeah. And the pressure — we can let the fans worry about that. And the athletes were really good at that. Yeah. Most of them are at that level. They have to be, right? Kathy: Yeah. I notice like at the collegiate level it’s not quite like that. They’re not quite there yet. But you know, the ones that are moving on past college level stuff, you can start to see that develop where they’re like, “Oh, I don’t have to win every single time. I don’t have to break my personal best every single time.” Jason: Mhm. So, can you jump into coach mode — and is

[25:31] there like a real world application for that? Cuz I mean, we all — three of us have coached kids a lot and I think that’s one of the best things is like you learn some real good real world lessons. And so, like what can the average person learn from that? Cuz I mean, I’m not going to be an elite track athlete. Yeah, it’s a little late for me to get started. Kathy: Seriously thinking you’re my next — Jason: Yeah. Kathy: — travel. Yeah. Jason: Kathy: Yeah. Get get on the road team. I know you can stretch with the best of them. Jason: I can stretch better than the best of them. Kathy: Yeah. Like world record holder.

[26:02] Jason: I don’t know if I can stretch with them. Kathy: Like maybe on an off day. Jason: of yourself. Kathy: Yeah, exactly. So, but like how does that translate into real world where — you know, I think people maybe beat themselves up or they have some of those expectations and how do you beat that? Kathy: That’s just — I mean, realizing that life isn’t — like you said before, you’re not going to have your best day every single — it’s just not possible. So, I like to recommend people offer themselves some grace. Jason: Yeah. Right? Like just take a breath. You’re probably

[26:33] okay. Did anybody die? Jason: Yeah. Probably not. Right. Kathy: Right. And if somebody did, was it very many people? Jason: Right. It wasn’t a lot. And they’re not complaining about it now. Kathy: No, they’re they’re at rest. Jason: Kathy: Yeah, you know what? It helped me a little bit because initially going into that, I was Jason: Yeah. pretty uptight, you know. I remember I showed up the first day and we were going to do some hill work with them and I meet them in the parking lot and I’m like grabbing their bags and all that stuff and Ashton’s like, “What are you doing?” I’m like,

[27:03] “Well, you can’t carry your bag.” He’s like, “What?” Yeah. I’m like, “We got to save your energy for this.” He’s just like — Jason: Yeah. Kathy: I was like, “Dude, take a breath. You’re fine. I am an athlete. I can carry a bag.” Jason: So. Yeah. Anyway. It’s just — yeah, I think understanding that not every day is your best day. And that’s okay. Kathy: Yeah. It’s going to be a roller coaster. It’s kind of like rehab. Right? Jason: Yeah. Kathy: Right. You’re going to have some really good days but there’s also going to be some deep valleys that you got to dig yourself back out of, right?

[27:33] Jason: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, do you have some good stories that you want to share from the Olympics? Kathy: Yeah, something something juicy. Yeah. Well, there was one — there was one pretty funny moment at the Olympics. So, the Olympics — it’s interesting. The Olympics were a great experience. Jason: Mhm. I’m so thankful that — Kathy: This is the Rio? Jason: This was Rio. Kathy: Okay. Jason: I was there with Team USA with Ashton and Team Canada with Brianne — Kathy: Yeah. Jason: — who is his wife. She’s a heptathlete. I was also working with a couple athletes from Estonia. Kathy: Okay.

[28:03] but primarily, I mean, they were my responsibility, those two. I was staying in a little compound that Canada had reserved Kathy: Okay. Jason: near the Olympic Village, which was very convenient cuz if I had been staying where the US was going to put me, it was like 3 hours away. So, anyway, but the the crowds at an Olympics are not the same as the crowds at a World Championship. The crowds that go to a World Championship are there because they are into that sport. Kathy: Yeah, they know track and field. Jason: track and field. The crowds at an Olympics are there because it’s an Olympics and — Kathy: Yeah, get a ticket. It’s just a bunch of drunks.

[28:34] Mostly. Yeah. Anyway, but so, I actually prefer to go to a World Championship than an Olympics. But we were at the Olympics and one of the problems at an Olympics is getting credentials. Mhm. Cuz they are few and far between. Sure. Sure. So, anyway, that ended up being a problem. At one point, the coach and I had to figure out how to get into the stadium one day when we weren’t credentialed to be in there that day cuz USA didn’t have enough credentials — we got one, but it was Ashton’s most important day.

[29:04] So, we had been kind of working in between the practice track, which was primarily the track right behind the stadium. You had to go into the stadium too, but there’s another one where they do the throws, discus and javelin. Okay. You can’t do that at the practice track. Right. Kill somebody. Yes. So, it was over there. We got onto the bus real quick, kind of hiding our credentials from the day before that weren’t valid anymore, but looked similar, and got driven in. So, that was good. But the best thing we — so, there are what’s called a combined events rest area. Okay. A place for

[29:35] multi-event athletes. When they’re in competition, they’re going to do five meets or five competitions in a day — or four if you’re a heptathlete or whatever — and they let you stay at the stadium in a room typically underneath where you rest in between your events, which is very handy. Mhm. So, when we got the tour of the stadium before everything started, the coach, Harry, and I busted away from the tour to go down and find that room. Weren’t supposed to do that, but we needed to scope this out. Yeah. So, we go down there, we find the room. We actually took some tape and marked off the areas we wanted.

[30:05] We’re claiming our spots down there. And then we hustle back up the way we had gone down to get back with the tour of the stadium, and then that was it. So, then fast forward to the first day of the heptathlon where Bree’s competing. We’re down in the combined events rest area getting ready for the first event, which is the 100-meter hurdles. And they gather the girls and they take them up to the call room area where they’re going to get together and then go out on the track. And Harry and I look at each other, and we’re like, “We don’t know how to get up to the stadium.” Like, we didn’t bother to scope out how to get

[30:35] up into the stands where we needed to be. So, we leave the room, and we just start walking underneath, and we kind of just decided we’re going to do the thing where you look like you know what you’re doing. Yes. Cuz people kind of leave you alone when you do that. So we’re walking underneath, then two security guards are looking at us kind of funny and I’m like, just keep walking. You look at the security guard and you go, “What?” I didn’t — I thought about it but I also didn’t want to get arrested. Yes. And so we get to this area where it looks like we can get up

[31:05] to the stadium and I kind of notice there’s some commotion behind us and the security guards are coming. And I’m just like, “Oh boy, go go.” And so we head up and it was the tunnel that’s the exit tunnel from the track. And we walk out onto the track. We’re not in the stands. We are on the track at the finish line. They are lined up to go and — but no kidding. I looked at her and I’m like, “We have 13 seconds.” Like, security’s coming from behind us. Or less if they’re breaking a

[31:35] world record. We’re on the track and we’re like — so we just scaled the wall. Oh. Up into the stands. But it’s right where all the cameras are. Okay. And they’re like, “Get out of the way. Move.” And we even — security like stopped at the end of the tunnel that they come out of for the — the race is happening. And we’re going up past these cameras and I look up — there’s security from above coming down. And I’m just like, “We’re done. We’re done here.” Yeah. So we get past the cameras and I’m in front of Harry and this lady stands up. I don’t know who she is and she goes,

[32:05] “Harry, you guys made it.” And I’m just like, “What?” And she comes up and she hugs me and she whispers in my ear, “Just go with it.” I’m like, “Okay.” And she gives Harry a hug and I hear her say, “You’re wearing it now.” And she turned around to security and she goes, “It’s okay. They’re with me.” And so it was the NBC on-field producer. Oh. And she had been asking Harry to wear a microphone. Okay. He kept saying no. And she’s like, “You’re wearing it now.” And he did. Oh man. She saved our bacon. But like, I was sitting here trying to think about how do I ask Don about his time in prison? Right? Like, I didn’t

[32:36] even know. Yeah. I told that story once in Spanish. This kid goes, “I don’t believe you.” And I’m like, “I’m not that clever to make something like that up.” That really actually happened. It was crazy. And so, the next time we went down, we figured out how to get up the right way. Yeah. Then we didn’t have that problem. But, that was crazy. Yeah, we have 13 seconds. We got where we’re going. Oh my gosh. Wow. Cuz you’re not going to outrun those guys. No. No. No. I’ve tried. I’ve raced against Bree. Goodness. She’d be — duh. Shockers.

[33:06] Duh. Yeah. So, here’s a question. So, if somebody is watching this and they have aspirations of a similar trajectory, what would be your best advice in terms of telling somebody where to start? That’s a great question. So, if there is something in your area that obviously is going to give you something to aim for, right? For us, we’re lucky we’re here cuz Eugene is a huge track and field town. Yeah. So, it worked out for me. But, if you’ve got

[33:37] something in your area, learn the sport. Like, give me an example of some things that they might be looking for. So, say there’s a marathon that happens here. We have a lot of mountain bikers in the area. A lot of recreational runners in the area. So, first of all, learn the sport you might be working with, so that you know the areas, you know the demands on the body, so you can focus on those for them and help them with that kind of stuff. So, that’s going to be a lot of orthopedic studying, a lot of sport-specific studying, that kind of stuff. So, yeah. Yeah, learn the sport you think you’re going to be working with first. And then, get your hands on as

[34:08] many people as you can that aren’t elites at it, cuz that’s where you’re going to end up starting anyway. Get a lot of feedback from them. Start with some bums. Yeah. Exactly. Hey, you’re not good at this. You know, and then find continuing education classes that spark your interest in that realm. So, I obviously do a bit of sports massage therapy type continuing education classes, but I do more Rolfing and

[34:38] orthopedic stuff. And that really has a lot of crossover in how I interact with the body and what I’ve learned. So, and then yeah, don’t be shy about getting a hold. Find out what’s going on in your area that’s elite and call. You know, there are lots of therapists that have — I don’t know who they are, but my phone rings and they’re like, “Hey, I heard you were the guy putting together a team for Pre-Fontaine. I’m super interested, here’s what I know and here’s what I’ve done,” and be ready to work. Like the other thing is be willing to work, because there are days — the days can be long. Like

[35:08] you might work really hard for a long time. There was one day at a national championships where I scheduled myself to start at 1:30. Made the mistake of going in at like 9:30 to check on the team. There were athletes there that liked me and so I started working on them. Literally didn’t step away from my table until 7:30 that night. People would bring me food. I stepped away to talk to Robin Pester, who you guys interviewed on another — they’re fantastic. We love us some Robin. She is brilliant, she is. And I know you won’t be insulted by this, but she is the smartest massage — I did it again.

[35:39] I don’t know why — she’s not a massage therapist. She’s an athletic trainer. She’s also a physical therapist, and she knows fascial chains and that whole system better than anybody I’ve ever met in the entire world, and I’ve met a lot of really good practitioners all around the world. And she’s also like super sweet, like very nice person. I’m terrified of her cuz she’s so nice and so smart, but yeah. I’ll tell you, if your listeners haven’t listened to that podcast yet, you got to put on your beanie and bring your pencil cuz she’s throwing a lot at you. I go to her

[36:10] classes and if I can take away 10% of what Robin’s throwing at us. And you talked about watching me work — well, any time I can watch Robin work at those events. So we’ve been working together at those events since 2004, and she was my other mentor. So clear back then she was teaching classes with Chris Whetstine, that guy that I had initially met. And yeah, I’ve been lucky to be in her world for that amount of time, and she blows my mind every time. Every time. Every time. She’s very very brilliant. Yeah, and I would add to that too, like find yourself a mentor. Mhm.

[36:41] Carry their bags. Yeah. Clean their tables. Yeah. Clean their tools. Soak up everything that they can tell you. Yep. You know, they just brain dump into you. Yep. Cuz that is — and if you’re lucky enough it’s someone like Robin who tells you, “Hold that foot,” while working on something else, and you actually can get hands-on and feel the same what she’s doing. Or whoever, so. So you said if somebody — so like get started by getting around the right stuff. Be ready to work. Yes. Sounds like

[37:13] you need to get a good mentor. It’s really helpful. Yeah, and somebody who might have an access into something. Right. But yeah, and don’t be shy about bugging somebody. Yeah. Right. It’s hard to sometimes ask like Right. “Hey, would you consider me on the team?” I think, but you got to. Yeah. You want to get there. Networking is critical, and I don’t care what it is that you do. If you want to get what you want, you have to learn to meet people, to show up, to

[37:44] not just show up and say “this is what I want,” but to show up and say “what can I do for you.” Yeah. Right. Yeah, what can I bring to that? Yeah. Absolutely, cuz I’ve had people that show up and they’re like, “Hey, I want this and this and this.” And it’s like, “Okay, cool, but you’re really busy.” And it’s like, “I don’t have a bunch of time to break you off something.” But people who show up and they’re like, “Hey, this is what I have to offer. How can I help?” That’s a totally different conversation. Exactly. So yeah, and you show up willing to do whatever, even if

[38:14] sometimes it’s nothing. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, especially at these events, like I’m carrying ice. Yeah. I’m emptying the ice pool. Like this is not glamorous. No. Sure is fun. Yeah. Yeah, and it’s really rewarding. When the athletes you work with do well — and when they don’t, like it’s just it’s a fun environment to experience. It’s motivating. Yeah, that’s for sure. It sure is. Kind of looking at yourself when you’re done like, “I should probably jog once in a —” Yeah.

[38:44] Okay, how about this? So you talked about Robin, who’s maybe one of the best types of people that you can work with. What is like the worst type of professional that you’ve worked with? So this is great. Especially in junior high. Cuz the other thing about this is the collaboration. Mhm. Right? Like this is fun. Yeah. It’s so interesting to see when you’re not quite at that level, the collaboration is not good. Right? People are territorial about their athletes. Yeah. You don’t own that athlete.

[39:14] Right. If you’re doing your job right, Yeah. you want to collaborate with anybody who’s going to offer that athlete anything that’s going to make them better. Right. Right? Or help them out. And you check your ego at the door. Yeah. We brought a PT in one time when we were coordinating the team and he shows up with his little “doctor whatever” name tag on and we’re like, “Come on, man. Dude.” Yeah. You can leave that at the door. Like, nobody here calls anybody doctor. No. Right? Like, and I recognize I’m a nerd. Yes. So you’re a doctor, but I call you

[39:44] Kathy: Right? Like, and even the team — you call me Dr. Young. Yes. No. I would bow down but I can’t stretch that far. It’s going to hurt me. So my sit and reach is negative. Ouch. But yeah, I mean, the collaboration is super important at this. And it’s really rewarding when you start to realize, like, if you treat each other as peers, so much more gets done. Yeah. So, but you know, you got to be willing to step into that. And leave — yeah, check your ego. Check it in. Check it in. You’re not

[40:15] there for you. Bring your best for sure. Be excited to have your best there, but like, you don’t need the pat on the back there. Mhm. Yeah, and it’s really interesting, too, because you were talking about doing education and stuff like that. And you can tell the people who haven’t really done anything because those are the ones who brag the most about the stuff. But I think that when people get an opportunity to do those things, they typically are approaching it with a lot of gratitude. Yeah. And it’s an awesome opportunity, you know, and

[40:46] so it just kind of makes me laugh sometimes. I’ll go and I’ll listen to somebody and they get up and they’re like, “Well, I did this and this and this, and here’s what I do, and here’s why this person is stupid and this person —” like, okay. Okay, I see your game. So, excuse me — does this actually mean that you haven’t done anything? Yeah, right. Yeah, because it seems like you haven’t done anything, so. I was getting a session — I don’t want to give a lot of details about where or who — but the person who was working on me works for another massage therapist. And she was telling me how he had been to the Olympic trials. And I was like, “Oh, cool, when?” She tells me and I’m like, I

[41:18] coordinated that team. He was not there at all. Oh gosh, and that totally happens. That totally happens, yeah. But maybe he was there in a personal massage capacity. He might have been. He might have been in the stands, but she was implying that he worked on the athletes. Well, yeah, and I mean it’s the same thing with the OSU stuff. It’s like, since I’ve been there, there’s one other chiropractor that worked there just briefly, like for a couple of

[41:49] months. And so sometimes I’ll see people advertise. There is one advertisement in particular that features a now pro athlete and talks about, “Oh yeah, this is the chiropractic clinic that I go to and blah blah blah.” And it’s like, “Nah, that’s not true, because that guy does not like to be adjusted.” Yeah, he’s like — it creeps him out and everything. He’s like, “Wait a minute.” So yeah, it’s funny. Yeah, absolutely. For integrity, you know — and it’s

[42:20] not about you. Yeah. Right? Like, it’s awesome that you’re there. It’s important. Like, my favorite people at those events are not the athletes. They’re my colleagues. Right? It really is. That’s the case. When I was first starting out, I was in awe — these people are Right. This guy’s a world record holder or whatever. But now I couldn’t care — like, yeah. I wish they weren’t there so I could just hang out with my friends. Yeah. Well, and there’s so much — I mean, even as busy as you get, it’s kind of weird because it’s like it comes in spurts, right? Where it’s like

[42:51] there’s lag time in between. But yeah, we’re working different events. So, but yeah, it is really cool to get to pick up some other people’s kung fu, too. How do I do that? Yeah, we learn so much at those. That’s probably better than any continuing ed. And we all get to collaborate. Yeah. So, we’ve talked a lot about the Summer Olympics and I wanted to ask — you mentioned earlier today that you’ve done —

[43:21] you’ve worked with bobsledders? Jason: I have. Yeah. Kathy: I want to hear about that. Yeah, so there was a track athlete named Lolo Jones who was a hurdler. And her agent and she got a hold of me. So she is an Olympic bobsledder — yeah. And she is a World Cup champion in bobsled. And so, before the 2022 Olympics, she was doing World Cup and they called and said, “Can you go? Can you travel with Lolo and with her pilot,

[43:51] whose name is Kaillie Humphries?” Kaillie Armbruster Humphries now. She got married and has since had a baby. So I traveled World Cup with the two of them, but also some skeleton athletes. And I wasn’t allowed to work on other bobsled athletes. Skeleton is absolutely insane. It’s on my bucket list, though. Is it really? God, no. Okay, like, one of my least favorite athletes to work with is MMA, because it’s like, “Okay, I’m going to work on you and then you’re going to go out there and —” yeah, absolutely. That’s kind of what I think about skeleton. Like, if you work with the skeleton athletes, it’s like, “Okay, I’m

[44:21] going to work on you and then you’re just going to go commit suicide on ice.” But I’ve heard there’s a place in Whistler that lets you start like halfway down the track. You don’t get to run, right? So you get on and they give you a — oh, they just give you a gentle — okay. Okay, cool. Yeah. I loved it. I loved being around it. It was so cool. But bobsled — bobsled is something else. So I worked with women. Mhm. Okay. I didn’t work with the men’s team at all. But so they have monobob and two-person. Oh yeah. Right, and that’s it. Okay.

[44:51] So I’m used to working with track athletes primarily. I’ve worked with professional soccer athletes and other stuff, too, but I’m there now to work with bobsledders. And I’m thinking, like, these are track athletes because they — yeah — running start, jump in. You sprint and then sit down. Yeah, that’s your job. With track athletes, one of the most important things when you get to an elite level is rest. Mhm. Like, when I was traveling with Alysia Breed, that was actually number one on the workout list. Mhm. Rest. Recover. That matters. Mhm. And so that’s my mindset. Yeah. I get there and I’m thinking,

[45:21] Jason: “Okay, so these athletes are going to go and they do their training like a track athlete, cuz they’re training for sprinting.” Kathy: Yeah. Jason: And then I’m like, “Well, cool. We’re going to do that and then I’m going to work on them.” And were you like, “Cool” or were you like, “Cool Runnings”? Oh, yeah. No, I would — there were some Jamaicans there. Okay.

So, I’m doing a little pre-workout work on them and then they do their thing and I figure, “Okay, I’m going to do the post-workout thing and then we’re going to go and get off our feet and rest.” Nope. When you’re done, you go back to the garage and you are a mechanic for about

[45:52] 40 hours a week with really heavy equipment. Kathy: So the athletes are doing that? The athletes are doing this. So get this, and this is the part that frustrated me. Men have four-person and two-person bobsled. Okay. Right? So, if you think about the size of the team — yeah, there are more men on a men’s team than there are women on a women’s team. Right. So, usually you’ll have your brake person, some of your push athletes, your pilot, and maybe a spare. And so they have five or six athletes to work on their sled. The women have three or four.

[46:23] Right? So there is more work for the women to do. Of course. And it is crazy the amount of work and the technical work that has to be done on that bobsled. There was one time a coach put a sticker on Kaillie’s bobsled without telling her. She threw a fit. It was like a little couple-ounce sticker. Kathy: Yeah. She’s like, you just threw the weight off. Like, I’ve been working on that all week. And now I have to recalibrate the whole thing. And the runners underneath? Kathy: Yeah. Yeah. A set of runners takes about at least two hours to prep for going down the hill. And they

[46:53] sharpen and smooth it out, right? Like, they’re different widths and they handle different kinds of conditions on the ice or whatever, but they have to be perfect. And say you go for practice day for two-person. So you’re going to do three runs down the hill. You might use a couple different sets of runners to get the feel. Now you just created four to six hours of work to get those ready for race day. That’s practice on two-person. Next you’re going to practice on monobob and do the same thing. And then you got to have them ready for race day. So you got to buff all those out, plus make

[47:23] sure the sled’s all right, all the weight inside of it is calibrated right for your brakeman behind you. And so there’s just all of this work in the garage. And then when you’re done with the work, you got to pick up the bobsled, which is 400 lb, load it in the truck, drive it up the hill, unload it out of the truck onto the platform where you stage, take it off that staging platform onto the track, race down the track, get it off the track, put it in the truck, drive back up the hill. Like, and it’s the athletes doing all of this. Kathy: Why aren’t there people to do this? They must have rules. They don’t. No, cuz there’s some countries that actually recognize like, oh hey, we want our athlete to be

[47:54] ready for this. And so they help a little bit. The coaches never help. Kathy: What? Never help. Crazy. So I was just like, all right, well, I’m going to learn how to do this cuz I’m here and I might as well. So I would carry their heavy tool bags and — yeah — they got to the point where they let me carry the bobsled, but I was never carrying the runners.

Yeah. Cuz I watched one guy drop a set one time and it opened up on asphalt and I was just like —

Send her home.

[48:25] That’s something a massage therapist would never do. So now I’m working on a track athlete, a mechanic, right, and people that are just plain tired. Kathy: Yes. And the track athletes are 20 lb heavier when they’re in bobsled than when they’re on the track. They need that weight. Need the weight for momentum. Kathy: Wow. Your training that you’re used to in track, done at a lighter weight, is harder on your body cuz you’re 20 lb heavier. Kathy: Absolutely. So it was just insane. It was not what I expected and I quickly had to

[48:55] figure out like, okay, what do I do different? Kathy: Yeah. If anything. And there were some things like — I have to think about how to incorporate recovery without having time for recovery. And then when you’re done racing, you load all your stuff up and you drive to your next track to be ready for practice runs two days later, and the athletes are the ones driving everything. Kathy: Insane. It was my experience. Every run comes at a high price just cuz there is so much with getting it back up the hill, right? Kathy: Right. Oh, man. Wow. What’s maybe the biggest

[49:26] misunderstanding that people have about what you do? Okay, this is great. I’m glad you asked that because all the time I get in my clinic here in town like, “Oh, you must hate working on me, right? Cuz I’m not an elite athlete.” Except to me, everybody’s an athlete. Kathy: Yes. Everybody has personal performance goals. Like, everybody wants to move. And so the biggest misconception is that you’re different than the elite athletes — you’re not. Your goals might be different. Your goal might not be a gold

[49:56] medal. But you still want to perform the best that you can. And so my thought process about you is that I’m treating you as if that’s the same thing. Jason: Man, where were you two weeks ago when Olson was on here trying to tell me that I’m not an athlete?

Man. You know what? Yeah, when he gets back on this show we’re going to sneak in the door and be like, “Well, Don Busner here has something else to tell you.” And I know — I’ve been around athletes.

[50:26] Yeah, there you go. That’s right. So. Yeah. No, I think that’s it. I think a lot of — and some people are afraid of calling me. Like, “Oh, that guy won’t take me. I’m nobody.” But you are. Kathy: Yeah. Well, as an aside, the first time I met you and they introduced me to you and said, “Oh, hey Don, this is Kathy. She’s a PT in Corvallis,” blah blah blah — and you’re like, “I don’t have any room for your patients.” Cuz he is booked out. Yeah.

[50:57] Jason: Yeah. I’ve had people on my waitlist for literally years. Yeah. And it’s just not going to happen. Yeah. Yeah. It’s not that he doesn’t want to treat you. No. It’s not it. I just literally don’t have the time. It’s a good problem to have. Kathy: Yeah. It’s a good problem to have. So. Jason: Yeah. But I love my — I have a very, very loyal client base. Kathy: Yeah. Yeah. When you become a part of somebody’s process. Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, they count on it. I’m proud to be part of it. Yeah. And I consider them friends. That’s another

[51:27] thing I would say just to somebody who’s coming into the business. Mhm. Lots of places tell you, you know, don’t make relationships, don’t talk to your clients. Well, cool. Like that is a load of crap. Kathy: Yep. Like don’t kiss them. No. But unless they’re your wife. Yes. Yes. Or whoever. But yeah, I am friends with pretty much all my clients. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I know about their families and I don’t have a degree in therapy other than massage therapy, but I’m like the hairdresser, I hear them. Kathy: Yes. And the hairapist. Jason: It’s a hair place. Yeah. Yes. You’re

[51:59] getting rubbed when you’re naked. Kathy: So, you’re telling me everything. Yes. People get on that table and they just let it out. Yeah? Kathy: But it’s helpful. Yeah, it’s an honor, actually. Yeah. And I yeah, I love working with them. Yeah, right. Really lucky to have people in my life that I have. Yeah. All right, I have to take a quick couple minutes to talk about college or high school basketball. Kathy: Oh, yeah. Do it. I had no idea you were a high school basketball coach. Didn’t you? Yeah, no. Cuz I helped coach the — I know. I’m well aware. Oh, man. I love it. I love it so much.

[52:29] So, I did — I started in boys soccer, South Auburn High School. Did four seasons there. Went off to school, came back, coached girls soccer. Thought it was going to be the same thing. Yeah. It is not. Kathy: No. Because boys and girls is — no, but I figured out it’s the same game. And there was — this is — I love this story if we have time. There was a gal on the team the first year I was coaching girls varsity whose older brother played for me back when I was coaching boys.

[52:59] Kathy: Okay. So she would come to like summer pick-up stuff and like kick around. So I already knew Nicole. Yeah. And there was one day early in the season, first year I was coaching varsity, that she made this pass. I was like — not what she should have done. And I yelled, “Nicole, what are you —” Yeah. And she stops playing, right? The game’s going on around her and she’s just looking at me. And she starts walking over to me. I’m like, “Uh, what the hell is she doing?” The game’s going on. I’m like — and she goes over there and she looks at me. She goes, “Coach, I know I screwed up right there. I was right there when

[53:30] it happened.” She said, “I don’t need you to tell me I screwed up. I need you to tell me how to fix it.” Kathy: Yes. I’m so proud of her for that. That changed my coaching style for everything after that. I would have been like, “Girl, get back out there on the field.” Yep. That’s how you fix it. Get back out there. But you can show boys the video of them screwing up and they’re still not going to believe you. Girls, for me, would do anything I asked if I had justification for it. All you have to do is empower them. I give them the game and they work so

[54:00] hard. I love that. And they stole my heart. Like those kids — I yeah, it’s so rewarding. Way more than massage and I love what I do with massage. Those kids, man, they are awesome. So yeah, and I was the varsity — so basketball: I played in high school despite my dinky size. I was a bench warmer. I worked hard in practice so I contributed a little, just not

[54:31] scouting. But they hired a new coach for the girls program who was a teammate of mine back in the day. Most of my soccer girls played basketball. Really the first season ever that South Albany High School soccer — boys or girls — made state playoffs. And so these are good athletes and he’s like, “Hey, you know this game. Come help me coach.” Cuz you know, soccer is just basketball. Yeah. And you can use some of the same concepts. And so I ended up being the varsity assistant and ultimately like coaching the freshman for him and

[55:02] whatever. So four seasons with basketball and that was my favorite sport growing up. Yeah. I just loved it. Yeah, it’s an honor. It’s a privilege. I think I look at coaching as a privilege, right? That you get to be a part of these kids’ high school careers. You know, cuz high school is a special time, you know? And so you get to be a part — just that little piece of their story. Those sports seasons for them, those are real memories. They carry those forever. So — you sent me a picture of a team

[55:33] that I coached and man, the first thing that happened whenever you sent that picture is I looked at it and I was like, “Oh, yes, I remember that team.” But then I’m going through them looking at every single one of those girls and I was like, “Okay, that one’s a lawyer. This one’s a rocket scientist. This one’s a computer scientist. This one owns a house now, you know?” And it’s just like it’s amazing to be able to get to be involved in that. And I think it makes me a better

[56:04] healthcare provider, too. That coaching experience and getting to kind of — because you get to see people at low moments. You get to help people through failure. It’s so much easier to coach people that are winning than people that are losing, right? Because you got to make the losing worth something, right? And yeah, it’s just a great crossover. So I totally believe you when you’re like, “Yeah, this is a big heart thing.” So.

[56:36] Kathy: Well, do you know what I love? I love playing games. You want to play a game? You’ve been looking forward to this. Jason: Kathy: You know what? I actually think you’re going to do really well in this game, okay? It’s similar to games that we’ve done before. We just want to test your expertise. That’s all. Yeah, we want to see if you can spot real-life massage techniques versus techniques that maybe aren’t so real, because there are so many people that create something that is — sorry — creative. They call it their own thing.

[57:06] Jason: Yeah, I’m doing dino massage. Yeah, oh hey, come to my continuing education weekend. Manual release technique. Yeah, cuz you don’t want to call it “active” cuz you don’t want to pay the bill. There’s some of those that you go to and it’s just like, can I just leave? Like, would anybody notice if I just leave? Yeah. At conventions where there’s other classes. I’ve gone up and I said, “I’m not sticking in this class. Can I go to a different one? It’s cool. I don’t care.” Yeah. Yeah. I’m not — You’re not taking my money anymore. Yeah, cool. I’m

[57:37] going to go to the car wash or something and watch cars get washed. Yep. Yeah, cuz it’s like that’s more valuable. Class rub. Golly. Yeah. I might learn more there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Look at the physics of that. All right. You ready for the first one? Let’s go for this. Okay, cranial tide compression. Cranial tide. Just — and let me know if you want, you can ask questions about the techniques, too. Well, certainly cranial sacral is a big one and it’s a good one. But, cranial tide. Cranial tide. So, they talk about cranial sacral flow,

[58:10] compression. I’m going to say no to that one. That is a fake one. Very good. Very good. Okay, what about maderotherapy? Madero. Mm-hmm. I don’t know what that would be. Need a description? Yes, let’s go. All right. It’s massage using specially shaped wooden tools to apply pressure and sculpt tissues. Maderotherapy. That’s instrument-assisted soft tissue

[58:40] manipulation and you can use all sorts of things. Spoons work great. Yes. So, like you talked about gua sha a little earlier. Yeah, same type of thing. Same type of thing. Yeah, but this is specifically maderotherapy. I wouldn’t doubt if that was a real thing and somebody’s just decided to use their name for it. So, I’m going to say yeah, somebody’s calling that a real thing. Two for two. Yes. Very good. Very good. Somebody named Madero? I have no idea. Maybe it’s the — I have no idea. It might be. Yeah. Yeah, could be. Okay, let’s do this one. Myoneural Scar

[59:13] Dissolution Protocol. It’s MSDP. Have you heard of that one? So, all of these things are like — things. Like, we do a lot of scar tissue work and myotherapy work. You could probably put any — is it trademarked, MSDP? Yeah, so that’s why I wouldn’t doubt it, because so many ridiculous things are trademarked that aren’t a thing you should trademark. You didn’t invent this. I did. Yeah. I’m going to say that one’s true, too. That one is actually fake. Yeah.

[59:44] Yeah. Yeah. We really aren’t dissolving — that’s just some word salad there. Well, I tried to sell it. I don’t know if we have time for this, but I’m also certified in lipossage, which is — they call it body contouring. Yeah. And I looked into this cuz I was really irritated when I first saw it. Like, you cannot dissolve fat. You are not going to get rid of fat on people. And so I’m like just dead set to — and I went so far as to get in the class. Yeah. And when I got there, I’m like, oh, this dude’s just doing Rolfing

[60:16] Yeah, for the lymphatic system. Like, he’s just called it this because you can — yeah — you can kind of get rid of the appearance of cellulite or whatever. But I so I called the creator. I’m like, “Bro, this is just Rolfing. And it’s specifically for getting the lymphatic system.” Yeah, that’s exactly what it was. He’s like, “I used to work with the US gymnastics team.” He’s like, “But I can market it as lipossage and make a lot more money.” Yeah, he’s like, “Did you pay for the class?” I said, “Yeah.” He said, “Perfect.” So — and I love it because it really

[60:46] can be helpful for people cosmetically. Okay. And so I don’t do it for sale or anything, but — and I don’t do it cuz I don’t have time cuz it’s multiple sessions — but I’ll tell you, I had a massage therapist that worked for me that did that, the body contouring. Yeah, and she came in — this was very early in my career. I think she was maybe like the third or fourth massage therapist I worked with. Her name was Yulia, and she was from Russia, and she came in and she had a very thick accent. She’s like, “I’m looking for a massage

[61:16] shop.” And I was like, “Nah, I can’t — I can’t understand what you’re saying.” And so we can’t work together. And so she was like, “Please, please.” And I was like, “No, no.” And then she goes, “Well, how about if I give you a sample massage and you could just see what I do.” And I was like, “I could use a massage, so yeah, I’ll get a massage and then I’ll tell her no.” So she gave me this massage and it was insane. Like, high-energy, fast-paced massage the whole time. And I was like, she started and I was like,

[61:47] “There’s no way she can keep this up for an hour.” She did it. Wow. And she did it for an hour, five times a day, every single day. Okay. You don’t do five of them a day. Yeah. And she — but it was crazy. She massaged her way into a job. I was like, “I don’t care if I can’t understand a single word you’re saying the whole time, because that was amazing. Oh, it was so good.” Yeah. And now — I can’t remember what she is. I think she’s a nutritionist, which is like, “Ah, Yulia,

[62:17] get back in the — get back in the game.” All right, let’s do two more here. Okay, elephant massage. Well, I’m assuming that means just — oh, so yes, because you can either massage elephants — cuz there is a lot of like animal massage. Okay. Not — not what we’re talking about here, but — people actually have elephants step on them and do massages. It’s a thing. That is correct. Yes. Yeah. It’s in Thailand. Yes, in Thailand. The elephants are trained just with a little bit of pressure. Just till

[62:47] you feel a couple of chiropractic cracks. Uh-huh. Yeah, and then that elephant sneezes or farts and it’s — oh, no. No. No, Jumbo. No. Oh, my god. Yep, that is a crazy thing. Let’s do one more. Neuro — sorry — neuro polar reflex alignment. Man, he’s putting together all these things that aren’t things. Putting together all these words, all

[63:17] I’m saying no to that one. It’s a combination of names. Yeah, you’re right. You’re right. It’s definitely not a thing. I couldn’t even say it. Right. So, Jason: Well, there’s a lot of them that are real that you also can’t say. Yeah, well, that’s true, probably. Yeah, well, sir, you are an expert. You are an expert, bona fide in the game. Kathy: This was super fun. Jason: You are an expert, so. Guest: Yeah, this is — I really enjoyed you guys’ podcast. So I’m glad I got to be on. Thanks. We enjoyed having you on. Again, I still think we could get a couple more hours of Don here. Yeah, there’s lots left to talk about. Okay. Jason: Well, and you were a high-value target. Like when we started

[63:48] this a year ago, we listed out, okay, who are some of the people that we could have and everything. And on purpose, there were some people we were like, let’s wait until we have a better viewership. And you were one of those people. So, yeah. So it’s a real honor having you on the show. Keenan’s good, too. Really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, until it got to the part about drinking urine. Yeah. Jason: Yeah, then I was like, nah, I’m going to quit being a podcaster. Nah, we love Keenan. You know, and that

[64:19] was a great episode. I think a lot of people are going to watch this one. A lot of value to it. So, I know that you’re not taking clients or anything like that, but do you do any sort of social media or any sort of training or anything like that? You’re just keeping it all a secret, right? Don: Yeah. I do have a couple social media pages that are not massage-oriented. Jason: Okay. Okay. Anything you want to promote? Well, go see you guys. Okay. There you go. Because you have great

[64:49] massage therapists, I think. Kathy: Yeah, actually. People are needing something — you can probably get them fairly quickly. And that’s another problem people run into. Don: Actually, no. Yeah, I mean, it’s tough, right? If people call me, it’s — yeah. For years, but I do like to talk to people who are interested in this career and just kind of want advice. I’ve helped people that way. I did teach a little bit at the massage school that was in Corvallis for a couple years. Jason: Oh yeah, the Heart of the Valley Massage. Right. Don: For them. And people are

[65:19] asking me quite frequently to like teach with them, but I just — I can’t teach people what I feel. Yeah, right. It’s so interesting because what I feel is not — Jason: Right. Like that wasn’t ever taught. That was just — it’s just something I’ve learned. I can tell fascial restrictions probably better than a lot of people. Don: I’m sure. I don’t know how to teach it. If you know — I will share that because I don’t want to — it’s — we don’t — people say Corvallis is like overrun with massage therapists. We don’t have enough. So this is — and there’s room.

[65:51] Yes. I love it when new people come to town. Don: I love to say I’m hiring massage therapists, and so if you are a massage therapist and you’re looking for a shot — There she goes. Yeah, I could probably take like two more. Yeah, I’m sure you can. And as soon as the word gets out that you’ve got room, you’ll need more than that. You just need the treatment space. Yeah, and if you speak Russian, it’s a real plus. All right, Kathy, take-homes. Kathy: Yes. One, Don almost got arrested at the

[66:21] Olympics. But no, my favorite part is that high school sports stole your heart. I love that. I love that. Okay, and mine is going to be actually kind of an admission because you’ve been doing this a very long time and I’ve got to admit when I came here and I started working, I was intimidated by you. Like, yeah, you just — you have such a great reputation and so it’s really really been a pleasure to be able to kind of sit down and discuss this stuff

[66:51] with you. I’ve got a lot of respect and admiration for you and what you do and what you’ve done. I think one thing that we didn’t really talk about but is really kind of interesting is the world is not as easy for male massage therapists. Now, that could be a whole new — yeah, it’s a whole different thing, and some of that’s with good reason. Yeah, some of it is earned. Yeah, some of it is earned. Yeah. But I think that you are a fantastic role model for anybody who wants to do it. And so thank you very

[67:22] much for taking the time to be with us. Don: Yeah, and if anybody’s curious that way, reach out because I’m happy to talk to them. Yeah. Sweet. Yeah, love that. And I think there’s just one more important item of business to get to, and that’s there’s no I in PTCH.